418 20 70359 https://www.911digitalarchive.org/files/original/f3df42e7d57564215a8ccd53f1bdbe73.jpg 4f4184892a613b042de23f59a9282942 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource World Trade Center HINY Photo HINY Photo: Description American Flag HINY Photo: Submitted On 9/28/01 HINY Photo: Category Flags Environmental Damage 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. full Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. digital image Media Type The media type of this item. still image https://www.911digitalarchive.org/files/original/d433139dfeb0d4686581f9a578d76115.jpg 4b0eb54f5032077bde3de8777469b26b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource World Trade Center HINY Photo HINY Photo: Description police man in gas mask HINY Photo: Submitted On 9/28/01 HINY Photo: Category Ground Zero Firemen Policemen 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. full Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. digital image Media Type The media type of this item. still image https://www.911digitalarchive.org/files/original/b1ff38c1e64bce1fe4241e0835bc917b.jpg 3869320f88bceafb04021a8332c9cff8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource World Trade Center HINY Photo HINY Photo: Description Color smoky alleyway HINY Photo: Submitted On 10/1/01 HINY Photo: Category Environmental Damage Viewed From North HINY Photo: Comment SAD I REALLY CANT BELIEVE OF WHAT HAPPENED ITS A SAD SIGHT 2004-03-24 11:18:20 I'm so shocked about it what happend in New York!!! 2002-09-12 13:40:54 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. full Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. digital image Media Type The media type of this item. still image https://www.911digitalarchive.org/files/original/73b705e88fc6282fad0172147adb51ee.jpg 540ec0712a34a3b380cf494248a03ea8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource World Trade Center HINY Photo HINY Photo: Description paper on ground HINY Photo: Submitted On 9/28/01 HINY Photo: Category Environmental Damage 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. full Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. digital image Media Type The media type of this item. still image https://www.911digitalarchive.org/files/original/a1d7d4bb874e30a00d63c860aecfb66a.jpg 864ed57b4e4188a38d505ff2a9052b31 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource World Trade Center HINY Photo HINY Photo: Description University image -- was 001 HINY Photo: Submitted On 9/28/01 HINY Photo: Category Policemen Rescue Worker 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. full Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. digital image Media Type The media type of this item. still image https://www.911digitalarchive.org/files/original/44e8cc9871a4835e1ba9818fd2c4681a.jpg ca1f3c79d204fe174c60701f80d69d40 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource World Trade Center HINY Photo HINY Photo: Description Doctors HINY Photo: Submitted On 10/4/01 HINY Photo: Category Ground Zero Medical 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. full Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. digital image Media Type The media type of this item. still image https://www.911digitalarchive.org/files/original/38413db7e8d3729414513f21976f642f.jpg 6fe91b4de26ab5c83d112134709a3bf2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource World Trade Center HINY Photo HINY Photo: Description image from CD ROM -- people watching WTC from across the river. can use his images for publicity with his permission. HINY Photo: Notes color photo of explosion dust cloud in lower manhattan HINY Photo: Submitted On 9/28/01 HINY Photo: Category WTC - Collapse Viewed From West Cityscape HINY Photo: Comment Wow This, to me, is such a powerful image. Being someone from the center of the US and not having been there in NY that horrible day or the days that came to follow, it was difficult to imagine or visualize the enormity of the desruction. This photo, using a body of water as a reference for scale simply blows me away and helps me to understand the terror and hopeless of those who were running from the collapsing buildings...running from a huge and frightening monster that simply couldn't be stopped. 2003-08-02 18:42:47 excellent best picture in the universe man. i am so keen that the shit buidings falling down. well done! osama bin laden, you are the real hero!!!!~!!!!!! 2003-08-18 03:11:59 gone gone 2003-03-03 10:34:21 response Revenge is sweet but payback is a real bitch. osama will get his along with every other motherfucker that supports him. "Nuke 'em!" 2003-11-21 13:34:26 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. full Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. digital image Media Type The media type of this item. still image https://www.911digitalarchive.org/files/original/64a061e1ef4b5300b1056891e251b199.jpg 947edf94bb8a4e4cf6094ee4d09a8da4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource World Trade Center HINY Photo HINY Photo: Description Asbestos Clearer HINY Photo: Submitted On 9/28/01 HINY Photo: Category Firemen 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. full Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. digital image Media Type The media type of this item. still image https://www.911digitalarchive.org/files/original/6bd7f52c1a2c9b1b6d5a77e9e64f3f19.jpg 80fa8f9a3690f0bddc03c5fd0b4646e9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource World Trade Center HINY Photo HINY Photo: Description Volunteer HINY Photo: Submitted On 9/28/01 HINY Photo: Category Firemen 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. full Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. digital image Media Type The media type of this item. still image https://www.911digitalarchive.org/files/original/a8b1e855ca34c7d8b867a4222b91c328.jpg 2054bb0813ae452b3b291209a2e09162 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource World Trade Center HINY Photo HINY Photo: Description Police Man HINY Photo: Submitted On 9/28/01 HINY Photo: Category Firemen HINY Photo: Comment today is the first anniversary of the attacks, and to tell you the truth i never really got into it all, i think i was too scared to face the reality of the situation and only today did i actually cry watching a program about the heroes from the plane that hit pensylvania.. this picture actually haunts me the intense, desperate stare of this man is amazing. 2002-09-11 00:46:03 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. full Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. digital image Media Type The media type of this item. still image https://www.911digitalarchive.org/files/original/3493599702afd6effbea66874b8c7cae.jpg 8dd53de3a5f995f6ac18ba5aad96a5d2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource World Trade Center HINY Photo HINY Photo: Description Volunteer HINY Photo: Submitted On 9/28/01 HINY Photo: Category Firemen 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. full Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. digital image Media Type The media type of this item. still image https://www.911digitalarchive.org/files/original/829799518852f0f39ba013aa3d0eeee9.jpg e04928ee569c2656f62e2c0f9036dc63 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource World Trade Center HINY Photo HINY Photo: Description Firefighter HINY Photo: Submitted On 9/28/01 HINY Photo: Category Firemen HINY Photo: Comment gimmer 2003-11-26 11:43:55 Memorial Support the rebuilding of the NYC after 9/11 at the www.newskyline.net 2003-01-07 07:14:47 Your Eyes Oh what your eyes must have seen and your body must have went through. I have a profound amount of respect for you and every other soul that survived, assisted and endured this hardship. May God Bless You and yours each and every day for the rest of your lives and the generations to come. God Bless You!! 2002-09-11 23:44:08 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. full Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. digital image Media Type The media type of this item. still image https://www.911digitalarchive.org/files/original/e7022985f4df66e7d5e16591a2ba096b.jpg 841bf0916edb84756b7df0fb2ad71ae4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource World Trade Center HINY Photo HINY Photo: Description 374 6 images on CD HINY Photo: Notes The anonymous image that seeded the show. HINY Photo: Submitted On 10/3/01 HINY Photo: Comment 001 fanttastic picture 2002-07-03 15:22:23 Beautiful picture The title says it all. Why did it have to happen? 2002-09-08 16:27:02 here is new york pic as foreboding a picture as i've ever scene... 2003-09-11 17:57:44 par hasard je suis tombée sur ce site par hasard et tout un flot d'émotions m'a submergée quand j'ai compris qu'il était dédié au "11 septembre". ce jour où j'ai pleuré... comme beaucoup... rien n'a fait évolué cette tristesse, surtout pas cette escalade de violences et d'incompréhensions. que nos enfants nous pardonnent pour ce monde que nous leur préparons... 2003-08-27 04:26:23 BBC2TV SAW YOUR SHOP AND PICTURES ON 9/8 WE WERE VERY MOVED I HOPE THAT COUPLES FLAT OVERLOOKING GROUND ZERO WILL BE LIVABLE SOON ALLOUR LOVE COLIN & RIKA HEREFORD U.K. 2002-09-09 14:19:48 re. purchashing I would like to see what I'm purchashing before I buy it guys. 2002-09-09 10:43:19 My heart remembers This picture is how my heart will always remember Ney York City. I went to New York the first time when I was 25 years old. I loved it! I had wanted to go back for years but never did. After 9/11/01 I had to go back. My husband and I went in November and even after all the television coverage...I could not believe it had actually happened. We walked around reading notes and flyers of people looking for their loved one's. My heart was so heavy with sorrow for all the lives taken and for the families left behind. The smell of death was in the air even after almost 3 months and ashes were everywhere we looked. For some time after that I had nightmares of 9/11 and would wake crying. Those nightmare have returned, I can only assume because of all the media coverage of the anniversary. After 9/11 my life will NEVER be the same and I won't forget the way I felt seeing those towers crash to earth. I pray for the families and for our wonderful country. GOD BLESS AMERICA. 2002-09-09 21:10:33 the terrorists are killing us, as they please, and no one is going to do anything When is this going to stop? They coul not find that son of a bicht osama ben laden. Is this going to stay just like that? I have a terrible trauma, since 9/11. I cry every day and I can not even sleep well anymore. It's very sad to see those ignorantes rulling this country and the entire world from a cave They are planning more attacks untill they finish with us. And please don't bring them to Guantanamo Bay and give them a bathin suit to go to the beach. Please kill them right at the spot. We don't need them here to spend our taxes. Our packets are spending millions of dollars to keep those basters here. Is cleaner and cheaper if they get kill in their fuc... country. And what happened with the shoe bomb guy? Are they still insisting to send him to the psiquiatrist hospital to get treament? When he chould be dead a long time ago? We cannot keep paying for those murderes anymore. Why so much mercy for them? And why so much thinking in attaking Sadam? Giving him time to get prepare for an attack on us? Stop the inocence and don't be naive any more. 2002-09-10 11:30:09 trying to find a certain picture I saw about your store on the discovery channel. The pictures that they showed were heart stopping. There was one in particular that tore me up. I would like to know if you still have it and how much it would be to get it. It is a picture of the trade center building after the plane went through, you can see the out line of the plane and standing in it is a woman. You have to really look to see her but she is there. Do you know the one I am talking about? Thank you, Becky Officer 2003-01-09 14:06:17 do you like me have you finich 2003-01-18 06:14:03 Here is New York We are looking over there from the Fleurieu Peninsula in South Australia, and a year after the event we still don't know what to say, but we do believe that the love and respect of decent people for each other is the only answer to terrorism. Our hearts are with the American people today, and always. Whenever we find the memory of what happened a year ago too overwhelming, we like to return our thoughts to the victory achieved by the passengers on flight 93 - while you have citizens like these people were, your country cannot be defeated, by anybody or any thing. We know this doesn't lift away your trauma - nothing can - but please let us all join together to rise above what was done to you. That way, we truly defeat those who would rule by making us fear them. Love,Rose and Liam 2002-09-10 22:33:20 mario aguriamerica 2002-09-11 07:15:04 God bless Amerika I wish all people in New York that they can learn to live with the situation. That they can forgett the bad and look up to the heros. I wish all American People all good things of the world!!!!!!!!!! All good wishes from Germany. We think on the people who stand on the GROUND ZERO!! My name is Jennifer Greß and I think on the people and the heros. 2002-09-11 16:02:16 WHY???? WHY?????? Ich finde einfach nicht die richtigen Wort, um beschreiben zu können, was ich fühle. Ich würde so gerne den Menschen helfen, die eine wichtige Person in ihrem Leben verloren haben, aber das schlimme ist, wir können nichts tuen. So viele Menschen mussten umsonst sterben!!! Ich frage WARUM? Verdammt noch mal, WARUM MUSSTEN SOVIELE MENSCHEN STERBEN?? Die verdammten Terroristen! Warum haben sie das getan? Ich kann sie nicht verstehen!!!!! Ich kann diese schrecklichen Menschen nicht verstehen!!!! Sie haben das Leben sovieler Menschen zerstört....... Ich möchte allen mein Beileid aussprechen!! 2002-09-11 16:02:35 Do We Know Why? I grieve, the loss has been tremendous, for now it is personal and no longer something removed and abstract - but here and unescapable. Hundreds of articles focusing on our grief, the loss, the anger, the pain. The attack the killing morally, ethically, humanly wrong. But, do we yet know why? We have not yet begun to ask the hardest questions such as what is it we have done as a nation, in our policies, or actions, or attitudes to have caused such offense, or hatred? I want get past the rhetoric and the histrionics and ask them to answer these questions objectively, factually and leave out the subjective until later. Is it even possible to express these things factually or reasonably? 2002-09-11 07:57:48 Blessings God Bless the living. I'v heard many personal survival stories, on the t.v. coverage of 9/11, the year after. My heart has fallen heavy with grief, for the family's, and friends of the "victums". LOVE 2002-09-12 02:36:07 Nichts wird sein wie es war Ich kann nur mein Mitgefühl all denen aussprechen die bei diesen schrecklichen Ereigniss völlig aus ihren Leben gerissen würden.Aber eins muß ich auch sagen es war zu erwarten das Amerika irgentwann angegriffen werden sollte vieleicht sollten die Menschen nachdenken das nicht nur immer eine Seite Schuld ist. Es soll aber nicht heißen das ich das beführworte was Bin Laden da angerichtet hat.Amerika sollte nicht gegen den Irak versuchen zu kämpfen egal wie es ausgehen wird Amerika wird der Verliehrer sein den sie wurden einmal in das Herz von Ameria getroffen u jetzt könnte sich das immer wiederholen. Was hat Busch den seitdem erreicht ja er hat sich als verständnissvoller Politiker gezeigt aber im Enteffekt würde er seinen Arsch u seine Familie retten. Er hat den Schutz den ganz Amerika braucht. 2002-09-12 02:37:12 close to you new york ,to that tall scyline i come , flying in from "the world" through your door...for there´s a heart that lives in new york.a rose on the street, i write my song to that cities heartbeat... although i´ve never been to n.y. i love this Paul simon song and i can cosider how life was like in the big apple. words can not explain my sorrow for what has happened. i want to show my greatest respects to all of you citicens, blessings and hope to you!!!claudia, germany, close to you. 2002-09-12 08:11:11 Es war so schrecklich Ich möchte allen betroffenen Menschen von diesem fürchterlichen Attentat mein Beileid aussprechen. Amerika hat diese Last stark getragen und niemand wird es jemals niederwerfen können. Niemand hat das Recht, ein Flugzeug als Bombe zu mißbrauchen und viele tausend unschuldige Menschen zu töten. Warum nur mußten all diese Menschen sterben? Warum wurden so viele Kinder zu Waisen gemacht. Nur aus Selbstsucht und Geltungsgefühl? Nur wegen einem fanatischen Glauben? Ich kann das nicht verstehen. Es ist einfach nur schrecklich. GOD BLESS AMERICA!!! 2002-09-12 08:21:24 Ich konnte es nicht fassen! Als ich diese schrecklichen Bilder gesehen habe, habe ich nur noch gedacht das gibt es nicht! Erst nach ein paar tagen habe ich begriffen, das es doch wirklichkeint ist! Ich möchte allen, die jemanden verlohren haben mein beileid aussprechen! New York never forget...... 2002-09-12 12:00:22 Ich konnte es nicht fassen! Als ich diese schrecklichen Bilder gesehen habe, habe ich nur noch gedacht das gibt es nicht! Erst nach ein paar tagen habe ich begriffen, das es doch wirklichkeint ist! Ich möchte allen, die jemanden verlohren haben mein beileid aussprechen! New York never forget...... 2002-09-12 12:00:28 I AM GREATLY SADDENED AT THE LOSS OF THE FIRE DEPARTEMENT AND THE VICTIMS ALSO AFFECTED BY IT. IT HAD A HUGE IMPACT ON THE WORLD 2002-09-12 10:01:44 Five years ago i've been in new york for the first time. one thing i will remember always and forever is the view over manhattan from the roof of the wtc. when i heard that a plane chrashed into one of the towers, my heart stop beating for a short time and tears running down my face when i first saw the pictures of the collapsing tower. i couldn't believe it at 9/11/01 and i still can't believe it today... i will visit new york again in january 2003. but it never will be the same. i'm a little bit scared of seeing ground zero and beeing overwhelmed by emotions... my heart goes out to all citizens of new york, specially to them who have to overcome the loss of a loving person and also to the rest of the american nation. Heike A., Hannover, Germany 2002-09-13 14:24:52 New york hi wie gehts. 2002-09-13 05:04:19 WOW I honestly never knew what the World Trade Center was until September 11, seeing as I live in Illinois and am only 15, and was shocked to realize it was almost as big as the Sears Tower, which I've gone to the top of twice. It was almost unbeleivable to see these humoungous buildings just toppling over like sandcastles, not 110 story buildings made of steel. This picture is honestly beautiful, I must say, and the idea behind this whole project is amazing, as is the cause. I still love you, New York! 2002-09-13 20:28:16 beloved souls The barn has burnt to the ground -- Now I can see the Moon -- Seagull -- 2002-09-24 16:41:56 911 this is a perfect picture of this so i would keep this. 2003-04-19 22:50:55 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. full Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. digital image Media Type The media type of this item. still image Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown Description An account of the resource New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time. Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident. To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day. Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero. Chinatown Interview Chinatown Interview: Interviewee Dr. Sun Hoo Foo Chinatown Interview: Interviewer Ingrid Dudek Chinatown Interview: Date 2004-07-14 Chinatown Interview: Language English Chinatown Interview: Occupation Dr. in Chinatown Chinatown Interview: Interview (en) Q: Today is July 14, 2004. I am Ingrid Dudek and this is the Chinatown Documentation Project. Can we start by giving your name? Foo: Dr. Sun-Hoo Foo. Q: And your profession. Foo: I'm a doctor. Q: What I wanted to do today is talk about your personal and professional background in relation to Chinatown and Chinatown community medical needs and especially surrounding the events of 9/11. Let's start a little bit with your background. Foo: Okay. I was trained at NYU. That was in 1976, Bellevue Hospital. I was told at that time, “if you see a Chinese patient in emergency room you are pretty sure they are very sick. They won't come up there until they are very sick”. So pay attention to them. After that I practiced -- my office was at 34th Street. And it takes a while, like a year sometimes, for patients to come there to see me for consultations. So at the end saw I should have office down here so that they can come. Now, to a lot of Chinese, “uptown is like a foreign land. It takes them years before they can go up there. Mainly because of the language problem. They don't how to get transportations. They don't know how to get there, and they're scared to go to place so they are not in Bellevue unless they are very sick.” So there was a reason of saying that. I think it's also true right now on basic care. I work very closely with Chinatown community. I'm a Director of Neurology -- I'm Director of Neurology at Downtown Hospital. I'm also on the board there, working in the hospital. We also have foundations called CCPH -- Chinese Community Partnership for Health -- that we do a lot of health screening, patient education in Chinatown area, because we know there's a problem here. Now, of this thing that we did from the CCPH, I published many articles on strokes. Now, strangely – and I'll tell you this -- if you live around Chinatown area there's official statistics that can tell you that “young stroke rate is about 50% higher than any part of the United States. By young, we mean anyone less than sixty years old”. We also look at our patients in Downtown Hospital. We found “our patient is seven years younger to have strokes compared with the [Northern] Manhattan [population]”, you know, north part -- you know, there was a study looking at different ethnicities, you know, in northern Manhattan, to see how the strokes is. And they look about -- look at them: black, Hispanic, but no Chinese. So we compare us to them and it’s seven years younger. And of the person who have strokes, many of them have brain hemorrhage. And as you know, the incidence of cerebral hemorrhage, it's about eight percent in the nation. But it’s up to 24% at Downtown. With hemorrhage in the brain you have more [physical] deficit and give you more problem. And we found that, although we cannot tell [if it’s properly] genetic whether it is so, but we know many of our patients have hypertension and it's never been treated. We also compared the data we have from the Chinese Community Partnership for Health, the screening. We have more [patent] hypertension, [and] more hypertension not treated. If they are treated they are not following up well. [We] also have a lot diabetes and hyper cholesterolemia, so we know all these are respective. And I'm very happy I could work with NYU recently. They have a grant [form the NIH to] establish [the] Asian health center to look at the health disparity among minority I think and it's starting very well. They just planning to set up a [liver] center at Bellevue, and other things will probably follow. And I hope that we can do a lot more for the communities. Q: Obviously you have a great deal invested in the Chinatown medical community. I just want to back up a little bit and talk about what was your experience working in midtown and seeing how Chinese people related to the health care system that brought you downtown? At what point did you move your practice to Chinatown? Foo: Well, I worked at Downtown Hospital very early on. But the offices were just like in the last six years. Q: And you've been down here regularly for over twenty years? Foo: Right. Right. Q: Well, how have you seen, chronologically maybe, medical resources changing in Chinatown in terms of what's available and how people approach the medical system? Foo: Well, I think you have to tell about the approach in two ways. One is, those who don't have insurance, [new] immigrants or those who are American citizens and works here. Now, if you know that we have a [medical] society [called] CAMS -- Chinese American Medical Society -- that started in [the] 50s. It expand now, we have about 800 members, mostly locally, and of that membership we formed something called CAIPA, so Chinese American IPA [Independent Practice Association]. We partner with Oxford -- we have a health care network of about two hundred physicians, and Dr. Tak Kwan is the president of that [CAMS]. We are one of the most successful IPA, and it's the only one that really do something for the [Chinese] community. Now, one thing that's different from us and other IPA is, our doctors work very hard. They work Saturday and Sunday, they open late, and Doctor Tak Kwan our physician, our president, sometimes he finish [work after] twelve o'clock. At night. So by doing that we are more accessible to patients. Especially a lot who do two or three jobs, and they have no time to see doctors in the working hour. They can't afford to do that. So they come on weekend and see us. So I think we are in touch with them on that wave. And also because of the culture issues, we probably knows their problem better than other -- better than our counterparts. Chinatown Clinic Health Clinic, also called Charles Wang, is doing a lot for the communities. For those who can afford and don't have insurance they really provide very good care. But Downtown Hospital, as I mentioned earlier, we have also clinic devoted for these communities. We established actually a Chinatown Partnership for Health -- sorry, wrong name, Chinese Community Partnership for Health -- that do regular screening, you know, radio shows. Health talk in different [public] places and workplace so that we get a message that, personally, and Dr. Tao and Dr. Leung and I in the office have a bi-weekly column at the World Journal that we publish regularly, the health issues in that newspaper and it is, of course, written by the staff reporter [reporter Eva Pan]. And at the end of it [the article] we do have numbers, with a hotline for patients to call, so [if] there's a problem regarding any health issue they have, or insurance, they can call. And this is staffed by CCPH of Downtown Hospital. Sometimes I get calls from Vancouver or Florida to ask for help. So this is how we try to get to the community to help them. Q: So all of these professional networks are partially directed at getting the community to engage with their own medical. Do they also pick up the slack for people who don't have insurance? Foo: Well, just the Chinatown Health Clinic, the Charles Wang Community Center. But from a professional standpoint there is more exciting happening. CAMS -- Chinese American Medical Society -- is not only local but national. We also form [an] international [organization]. This is something called Federation of Chinese American Medical Society, [we] partner with a physician, Chinese physicians from Toronto, Vancouver, and trying to talk about issues related to the Chinese community. We have a conference, international conference, every two years. Between here and San Francisco. This is the twelfth conference that's going to be set up on October, this year, talk about all the issues that related to Chinese patients. So the one I was talking to you about, like the strokes, is presented in that place so that everyone knows. So you go to our web site, you actually can see the abstracts of that. So we try on our part to work on the communities, try to get people interested in the issues. Because we do have problems that are not related, or are much less important for other communities, but it's important and it would be a big issue [for the nation] if it's not treated. Chinatown -- The Chinese Community Partnership for Health actually did a study not too long ago looking at hepatitis B in the school. And we really are trigger a national response of having everyone to have hepatitis B vaccine, because there's such a high prevalence of hepatitis B in our communities. So it's almost become epidemic, that you have to do something about it. Q: Where does that come from? Foo: The hepatitis B? Well, it's from the kids, and we found that the immigrants have high incidence than those that are born here. And it's transmitted, you know, sexually, in close contact. So if you don't treat that, it will be big health issue at the end and you can develop hepatitis B and cirrhosis and hepatoma. So we actually started it, NYU Downtown actually started that project. Q: You had mentioned earlier that one of the assets of all of these organizations is that they're specific to the Chinese community and understand the cultural issues that are involved. I'm wondering if you could speak more on what you see the cultural issues are that are related to the Chinese medical needs. Foo: Well, as you know that there's a Chinese traditional treatment for diseases, talking about ying and yang, talking about hot and cold. If you don't know that, it's very hard to treat them. Most of the patients don't like to go to hospital because their language is a problem and the customs are different. For example, this we have been working for a long time is when they go to the hospital they want hot water. They want warm water. They don't want to have cold water, because cold is bad for you. And you ask the staff to give you hot water, they think you're crazy. “No, we drink cold water.” I mean, that small thing will give you trouble. You know? Or when you eat you're not used to the Western food, so at Downtown do have cook that specially do thing for them so that they feel more comfortable. I mean, someone who are sick in the hospital, all these small things get very bad. The other thing is about getting blankets. When you sleep. You don't want to have too much blanket on you. But traditionally they feel very cool, they want two or three blanket. And the staff make it -- they feel that, gee, you're crazy, you want three or four blankets, it's no good for you. But however, that's how they used to. So small thing like that can make a big difference. You take care of it. Q: I'm wondering, too -- you had mentioned that there were a number of outreach programs, like on the radio and in the papers. Are those in Chinese or how do they work? Foo: They're in Chinese. And although this is a very small community, I think we have at least five or six newspaper, Chinese newspaper here, if not more. And most of the immigrants, when they come here, they don't have time to learn the second language. It's very hard for adult to catch the second language, especially to work three jobs and take care of the family. So all these things I'm talking about [are] in Chinese, and [we’re] trying to get to them with their language and then give them information that they need. Q: So -- what -- I want to keep talking about the big picture in terms of, like you've been describing a very pro-active situation in terms of community and the medical institutions taking an interest in specific community needs. Do you feel that has always been the case? Foo: I think the momentum is here now. I mean, it's coming up. I don't think it's there before. The Asian Health Center just started. From NIH, from the grant from NIH. In the past, no one cared about it. Now, I think the reason it accumulated to this point is, a lot of people are doing the work. And the communities, the doctors, we've been trying in the past and do that. And the hospitals did their part. You know, the Downtown Hospital, sixty-five percent -- sixty-five percent of patients are Asians. And they've been trying to work hard on trying to set the committee. The Chinese Health Clinic also started like -- what? -- I guess twenty years ago. I can't tell you the exact time. All this thing accumulate to the point that we all think that, we all know that this is going to be important. And so we were very happy then, you know. Today we have more people interested in trying to do something about. Q: So you feel like it's the demographic change that people have to respond to, the realities of the populations downtown… Foo: Yeah. I think people are more sensitive to -- to -- to minority issue, because they are not just isolated, they're important. And they not just affect the community itself, but if is not taken care of you affect the whole country as such. So in the past when you at journal, you look at study, we're talking about big population, we're talking about white, we're talking about -- you know -- Spanish, we're talking about blacks. But not so much about Asians. But the [Asian] population [is] increasing. We have about fourteen percent [annual] increase in Asian population here, in downtown area. And they get older, too. And they get sick, they get sick, too. So I think, you know, we need to look at the issues. Q: So prior -- so prior to, say, this moment, has the burden is mostly the burden has mostly been on informal organizations to do the outreach? Foo: You see, there's no, really, there's no organized effort to do it. I think Asian Health Center is the first one to try to use, to organize everyone together to work on these issues. And I'm very happy -- for example, I just mentioned that the liver center is established. Right away. And so when people looking at hepatitis B, cirrhosis, hepatoma issues on it. But before we reached that stage a lot of community people are working on it, to take care of the people, and voice that, you know. Not too long ago, I think, we have this Town Hall meeting -- this is initiated by the White House -- going to different places and talk about what the [health] issue is. Downtown Hospital, Chinese American Medical Society, and our counterpart in California -- there's a Chinese hospital there -- who will study on the program, taking your elderly and pick up all the information. We all went to the Town Hall and speak about it. I don't know if that triggered it but that, I think, helps. Because everyone is interesting and could join efforts and do something about it. Q: What about post 9/11 issues? Because I know there have been, sort of, complaints or concerns that they were toxins in the air downtown, and that there was a specific medical commissions that were directed towards the downtown community. Did that -- did that outreach make it to Chinatown community? What is your sense of post-9/11 issues? Foo: 9/11 was a very traumatic experience. I know that first hand, because our hospital is at Ground Zero. Although no one talk about it. Because we're right there, and no reporter can say there's no electricity, there's no telephone, and we functioned, just because of the good will of the workers there they do their best. We actually used cellular phones. And we have an emergency generator. Even at that difficult time we were able to go out for the communities and give them water, take care of the medical needs of the senior center that involved with the hospital. Also, because of [the blocking of] traffic, it's even hard for our patients to reach us, and we have a van go out to the community and get them organized. So there was immediate help, but after that I think the economy suffered a lot in this area. So this will affect patients able to get health care. Because they lost their job, they don't have things to do. Now, as far as the issue they're talking about, the pulmonary system, I think NYU have a team that comes down, and I think they registered people who are here that were exposed to that to see what will happen long term-wise. I'm a neurologist, I'm not a pulmonologist, I couldn't talk too much about that. But I think they are -- people are looking at it. I'm not sure it's enough target on that. But it really takes a lot of effort, a lot of coordination budget-wise to do it. So I don't know how far we are in that. But, yes, this may come out in the next few years, whether we all will have more pulmonary consequences on the exposure. But I think that the main thing is the economy-wise, because we do lost a lot of patients. Because of their loss of their jobs they lost their insurance. They wouldn't be able to see patients. So that could be a problem. Q: Have there been any efforts to ameliorate that issue in terms of economic loss and its relationship to health care? Foo: Well, I think all of us working on this are trying to get helped. For example, I work at Downtown, I work very closely with them. Because of this problem, patients couldn't get to us, there's less patients coming in, and we could not help them. So we were trying to get help from the federal and from, you know, philanthropy to help the hospital in this financially stressed time. So that we can be strong and we can serve the communities. We are asking for help. We are -- we are looking at -- a lot of people are offering help so we need more. Q: I know you work in neurology, but I was wondering if you could speak to your general sense of how Chinatown was affected by 9/11, generally or perhaps in terms of medical needs. Foo: Well, we have Charles Wang that, in theory, will help anyone that needs help, whether you have money or not, or insurance or not, they will be able to help you. The question is whether, because of the economy down-turn, that [the resident will] have time to look into [their health issues], and you know that. I mentioned earlier before, because “when you see them in the emergency room they are very sick, otherwise they won't come in”. So you have to -- if they have to support to put food on the table -- they don't have time to go to see doctors, you can go to Chinatown Health Clinic or you can go to the Downtown Hospital, the clinic that we have is supposed to help them if they come and ask for it. We do encourage them to come. The question is whether they can come or not, you know, because of the -- they have to work on the other side. So I think we need a lot of help there. We have to revise economy in Chinatown. Q: A lot of the reports that have come out have fixated on whether asbestos affects the issue and whether or not [INAUDIBLE], but it's like the picture you're painting is more that the institutional structures are there but the problem really is outreach and access. Foo: Right. I think they could come in, we will help them more. Not to say that there's no increased asthma or other problems. I think, yes, they were affected. The other thing I want to stress is that the institutions are trying to research on this [cell phone rings] and see if all this effect can be studied and we can find a better way of treating, if it affects us. Q: So what would you anticipate then is, say, a medical issue that is so far unaddressed, that you would like to see in the future. Foo: You’re not talking in particular about 9/11, all right? Okay. See, we have our own things. Let’s say, nasopharyngeal [NPC] cancer. If you see that, it has to be Chinese or Asian, not other races. There's a lot of things to deal with it. Stroke issues, why we have so much [cerebral] bleed. Is that just because they are more hypertension that are not treated, or genetically there's a problem in it? The health issues, I mean, all this risk factor can be modified if it change. And there's a public health issue that can we get the message to the people and help them with that? Hepatoma, hepatitis B, I mentioned earlier on, “if you see a big liver, it is Asian, it is usually a tumor”. If other races, it could be due to, you know, big liver, fatty liver. But not Chinese. If you see that. When I went to medical school I was told -- I was trained in Taiwan – “when you see a big liver in Chinese patient it has to be hepatoma, nothing else”. So that's something that we know. Infectious diseases like TB, the immigrant may have the [infected area] focus in the lung, or they may be infected and if not treated adequately it could become a problem when they get older. So all these are issues that we have to work on and find out. Now, [beeper sound] traditionally people think that Chinese are a model minorities that don't have any problem. And we always thought that we are quite good, our cholesterol is very low, but you don't get the statistic our cholesterol actually is quite high. Now maybe because the Western food that we are eating over here, but that's an issue. It's not, you are thin so you don't have cholesterol problem. We also have a lot of osteoporosis. Fractured hips and things like that. And that's because of either genetic issues or because of the environment, you know, the food we're taking, or we're not exercising enough. So there are a lot of issues there that we have. Now, one of the things that Dr. George Liu [CAIPA president] is interested in is, we don't have even the normal data on us. Osteoporosis is just for Western data, not the Asian data. We should be able to look into that. And do it. So this Asian Health Center we established is trying to encourage people to do research and get grants and study all these issues. I think, in the next few years, I think we should be able to help us by working concentrated on this [Asian health], and having people interested in this. Q: So these are all issues that you feel can be identified uniquely to Chinese people or Chinese communities. I'm wondering maybe more specifically what kind of patients do you see, in terms of background, in terms of what age people are. Foo: Me, myself? Q: Yes. Foo: Well, I see a lot of patients -- I'm an adult neurologist -- so I see adults. But [due to] the nature of neurologist, we see a lot of older people with strokes, coming with strokes, with Parkinson's Disease. The geriatric population will eventually, you know, be what I serve. I also see a lot of young people, a lot of migraine patients, a lot of patients with back pains, [beeper sound] problems like that. Q: So from that vantage point, I wonder if you could speak about how you see your patient population having changed during your career at Downtown. In terms of immigrant populations or economic backgrounds… Foo: Well, I think, with the insurance changes recently, with this HMO coming up, it makes a big difference as far as what I see and where I see. And, you know, and I used to see a lot of stroke patients in the hospital, and it still does, but, however, we have less patients in the hospital because we are getting them out early from the hospital, so hospital practice become less -- we have more outpatient practice. Of course, it depends on where you [work]. I see my patients come in two groups. One is young, working class, and with a stress or migraine headache and with activities, you know, back pains. So that would be that population. But for the older geriatric population, I see a lot of stroke patients, patients with Parkinson's Disease, and chronic disease. Q: And these people most often are coming to you through HMO's or other kinds of -- ? Foo: Yeah, because HMO or just Medicaid, just geriatric populations. Q: I want to go back a little bit to the 9/11 issue and see if you could talk a little bit more about what went on at the hospital, and what kind of things went on immediately aftermath of 9/11. Foo: Well, if you are there the day of 9/11 it's amazing how the workers devote themselves to do it. I was at NYU when this thing happened. I was in a meeting. Came out and saw some smoke coming out from World Trade Center. Immediately I thought that I should come down. So I went to the garage to get my car, I turn around NYU three times, I couldn't get down because everything is blocked. I mean, [the police are] very fast at blocking. And I don't know what to do. And I think a lot of people don't know what to do in that. But I was -- I went there and talked to my daughter at Columbia [University] and she told me, 'Why don't you call the police?' So I just figure I just go and talk to a policeman. I said, 'Look, I have to go down to Downtown, because I work there.' So, no problem, immediately they get me down right away. But by the time I get down it's way too late. Because the two buildings was already collapsed. Within minutes, I think, there are more than four hundred people go to the emergency room covered with dust, and it's taken care of by the hospital, for their purposes. When I was there that wait is gone, and everyone is waiting outside for ambulance to come. And we see ambulance come in, come out, but really there are no patients coming in. We see mostly injured workers, you know, firemen and policemen coming in. It was very sad. But I cannot tell you, though, everyone is trying to do their best to help, and no one is talking about anything except to help the patients. The hospital covered by dust, no electricity, no telephone service, but everyone's there waiting to serve. It was very touching to look at it. Q: And then? Foo: After that, I think after that, we really worked very hard, we really have a hard time, because without telephone, without electricity, it's very hard to work there. But everyone have a spirit high up, and help each one, help everyone, [we went out] to the neighborhood [to offer help]. I think Dr. Logan at that time was asking doctors and nurses to go to the surrounding senior citizens’ [homes]. Because there's no access to them. We [brought] them water and try to take care of their health needs. So I thought that was very nice. We try our best to do it with the limited [resources] that we have. And after that, it still take a while before we get electricity back in. Q: How long did that go on? Foo: I really don't remember. It was a while ago. I know but it takes a long time to do it. No one talk about, you know, when they get paid, or whether they sick, or it's overtime, things like that -- they would just do it. So that was very good. And you look at a lot of nice people. You are very happy about that. After that, we do suffer, because there are a lot of roadblocks. Patients could not come into the hospital because they had to walk through all these blockades -- they are even there now. So patients don't come to the hospital, so we have a problem because they couldn't come access us. But I think it works out now. Q: How long was it before things normalized somewhat? Foo: In the hospital? Q: Yeah. Foo: Oh, dear -- [END TAPE ONE, SIDE ONE; BEGIN TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO] Foo: Oh, dear, it takes a while, and I don't think it's still normalized right now. Because it does affect our -- the -- the -- the referral from the surrounding places even now. I mean, you know that the Chatham Square is still blocking there, right, so it's very hard to get from there to the hospital from that routes. And you cannot go to the FBI where the [INAUDIBLE] school and the building is to get to there. So we have a van service that is free for patients to come from Chinatown. We take them over to the hospital. But it's still not convenient. But anyway, we try to cope. We try to cope. We do our best. Q: What was the general feeling in Chinatown at that time? Foo: About the 9/11? Q: Post 9/11. Foo: Oh, it was terrible. You know, you are here, at that time, I remember -- I never see anything closed down -- closed -- in Mott Street. And I think not too long after the 9/11, I saw two or three restaurants that are closed in Mott Street. Which never happened before. And all the garment factories -- I'm told that there may be more than a hundred factories close down around this area, because there's no way you can get the product out of the place. There's no traffic. You can not get out. And being they're in trouble already, this just kill it. I'm told that now, if you want to have office in Chinatown it's very easy, because there's a lot of space opening up in the garment factories. So it's easier to get, and therefore real estate sending the rents coming down, and all that. But I think, if you know about Chinatown, the places that are closed down in Chatham Square -- it's [where] all the buses stop there for tourists to come and buses stop there. The tourists will go from that place, Mott Street, and go around and visit Chinatown. Being no bus over there, there's no traffic. So it's very quiet. I think it's better but, at that time, I think, during 9/11 even though you come to support the restaurants you can go in and you be the only one there in the restaurant. So it affects the economy very badly. What else I can say about it? Q: At what point were different medical institutions responding to medical needs especially in Chinatown? You talked about Charles Wang but then there are also federal and state initiatives in Chinatown. Did those hit Chinatown? Foo: Right. I guess it's all done locally. All locally, by local community. The Charles Wang, Downtown Hospital, physicians, they would just volunteer to take care particular patients. And actually, when the plane hit here a lot of Chinese physicians at Downtown. And suddenly this community volunteer and close their shops, close the office, and go to the hospital to volunteer their time. It's very sad that we had more doctors than patients given the events, but, really, there were a lot of people going to help. Now, some of the time -- I think, at that point, when it happened, most of the office are closed. Not because the doctor don't want to come, but he just no have access. You can't come here. And patients have no access to come to see you. I was in the hospital for some time, so hospital is open all the time. Anyone who wants care can come in. So I think it's a local effort to do that. Of course, it's not like the SARS or whatever, that we had to mobilize the whole nation to it. There's no need for that. It's probably all local effort. And everybody thinks it's probably busy, about what would happen during that time. And I don't think there is any special need. My son was a medical student at that time. They went to -- what is that, on the west -- the government actually set up a whole operating place in the Chelsea place, where you have many operating tables there. But, again, there's nothing [happening] there. Everything is set up. I think the government come and respond very fast on the disaster. But there's really no patients that require their help. Q: Not in that way. Foo: Not in that way, right. Q: So you're sense is that the effects may be long term or -- Foo: Right. What will happen in the future. But I think whatever emergency at that point, it happen within seconds. Nothing help after that. Q: You mentioned the SARS scare. What was your experience with that like? How was it different? Foo: Well, it was very bad. I think it was [sounds like] worse. Now, at that time, although we know that there's no SARS in Chinatown yet, people look at us and say, 'Well, you're Chinese, you must have SARS.' So no one come to Chinatown to restaurant to eat at that point. If anyone is here you see all Chinese there, because we say we'll support the community, we'll come in here. And there's nothing -- so people worry about catching SARS, and this may be the place that you will have it. But fortunately we don't have SARS, but unfortunately it [did] affect the economy very badly. Q: How long will that go on? Foo: I can't tell you the time, but it [did] go on for a long time. Yeah. I think now the economy's catching up, but I think there are more things to do. And I don't know what else. I mean, I'm doctor, I don't know economy, but I think there are a lot of things you can do to stimulate economy. Q: I wanted to switch gears a little bit -- because you mentioned your son was in medical school, and I wanted to get a better sense of your personal history. Because you were trained in Taiwan at the National Taiwan University -- Foo: Right. Yeah. Q: Did you grow up in Taiwan? Foo: No. Q: Where -- Foo: Well, I was born in Malaysia. I was growing up in Brunei, and medical school in Taiwan. Well, I think it's -- my family's spreading all over the place. Some are in Australia, and one was in Canada. That happened when my father moved down to Malaysia [from China]. And the reason for that is because of the war. So we were sent up there. Q: At what point did you come to the States? Foo: Well, what happened is, is I think it's very tough to grow up in Malaysia and Brunei, because you're so afraid that you don't have the identity. Although I work very well and very friendly -- I have a lot of friends in different places. So when I was in Taiwan, actually, I have a group of friends that are very interested in trying to make medicine into Chinese. So I was at National Taiwan University. When I graduate, our CR, which is Chief Resident, that translated Harrison textbook in internal medicine to Chinese. So hopefully we can use [Chinese] as a medium and probably get to our patients much easier. So the first thing I did. And then, spinning from that, we got a publication called Medicine Today that's targeted for practicing physicians using Chinese as a medium, to familiar them with their Chinese medical terms. And also, we spin out a magazine for public, called Health [World], which is still ongoing right now. So I was very proud that we could do that. And then, at that point, America's the place where you further your medical knowledge, so my father suggested, 'Why don't you go to America and learn more about it?' So I came over here. And fortunately I went to St. Vincent's at Bridgeport, and after that I went to NYU for my neurology training. And after I finished, with my experience in Bellevue, knowing that Asians don't go to hospital unless they are very sick, I thought, well, maybe I should come down to Chinatown. Be, you know, close to them. So they start all these things. Q: In your work in translating the medical textbooks, was it because the education system was not so standardized? Foo: Well, at that point, because Americans is top as far as medicine is concerned, so all the advanced knowledge, newer knowledge is from [the U.S.]. And Chinese, well, don't really have access to that. So if we can translate to Chinese we can bring this to more physicians, and to more patients, it would be a good thing to do so they can do it. One of the things very interesting at that point is [psycholody], there was a psychiatrist, Dr. Tseng, [who] was trained in Hawaii, came back and started a whole thing on us -- influenced really a lot. He translated a lot of psychiatry literature, including dream interpretations from Freud -- which I was part of together with my friends. So we tried to bring that knowledge to China. Now, talking about something, we do have problems, you know, of mental health in this area [Chinatown]. I don't know if you know that the suicide rates, you know, in elderly female are very high. Because of the culture changes most of the immigrants come here, work for the family, raise the family, and the children, although are very excellent, they don't necessarily have the same culture or the same thinking as [their parents]. And therefore, when they get old, when they retire, some get lost and don't know where to go. And it's very easy to see all the Chinese patients, geriatrics, you know, and found that they have depressions. They're all very depressed because [they think] it's time for them to die. There's nothing else to do. So Dr. Chung, Henry Chung, a psychiatrist, is trying to get a grant, work on the mental health issue on the area. And I think that's very great still. Also, part of the Asian Health Center that just started, that's the main issue I think we look at. So talking about twenty-something years ago, we think there's something to work on, and we need it now. Q: You actually brought this up earlier, kind if in a different way, in terms of making Western medicine more amenable to Chinese cultural needs. Do you feel that psychology is difficult to address as sort of a really Western practice? Foo: Well, I think you have to look at the cultures. Chinese and Western are very, very different. I don't even know about the -- one of the main classics in China called 'Dream of the Red Chamber'. If you look at that and the spirit tells you how the Chinese structure is, family structure is, none of us [as individuals] are very important -- the family is important. And you are important because you are important in the family. So Jia Boyi, the young man hero in it, is just an ordinary person, but because he will inherit -- you be the spokesperson for the family, so everyone try to be friend with him and make him very important. If you lost that [status], you are not there any more. So in Chinese culture all of us are part of the whole family, and not individual. It's very different from the person who [is raised in the West]. The [second generation] Chinese, the immigrants over here, adopt the cultures here. It's very different, and I think even in China, because of the world is getting smaller, everything change. So you need -- you do need to look at that. It's very hard for a Chinese to see a psychiatrist, because it's such a shame -- you know, you're “crazy”, that's why you go to see someone. But -- but, it's not true. I mean, there are things that you can not talk, and value system has changed, so I think we have to work on that and help our people. Q: So maybe this is another need. Foo: Oh, yeah. This is the biggest need, I think. The health, the mental health issue, is a big need that everyone ignore. Now, it's rare to see a Western psychiatrist, also, because the culture's different. And the way you express is very different. And maybe you have something to say, you cannot express in English, and he just not going to help you. Q: Is there a large Chinese psychology movement or mental group, even? Foo: Well, I think we are starting. Of course there are -- being, you know, there are a lot of Asians now in the United States. There are more Asians study medicine and some of them will be a psychologist. Q: To back up again… Foo: Yeah. Q: You have said after Taiwan you came to the U.S. and that's when you got interested in the Chinese community here. Do you live in Chinatown? Foo: I don't live in Chinatown. I live in New Jersey. I thought -- at that time, when I first started, I was a resident. And I look at the Water tower -- there's a building there. And finally I don't have money to live there. I think I am the same as [any other] immigrant when I came here with nothing in my hands. So if I pay all my salary in renting apartment my kids wouldn't be happy, and they would be disappointed. So I decided to go to Elmhurst, and stayed, and my friends helped me to do it. And when they get older I thought that, gee, they may want to be more in the culture, in the society, so the only way I can do is go to the suburb, where they'll be happy, with many -- with a lot of rooms to grow up. So I went to New Jersey, North Jersey, and raised them there. Q: But even so, professionally and personally, you remain engaged in the Chinese and Chinatown community obviously. Foo: Right. Right. Q: Is there a community in Jersey? Foo: No. Q: … where you live? Foo: Well, I live in a very small community, but my main activities in Chinatown and Elmhurst. When my kids are small I took them to Chinese school. And if you are Chinese family, you know how hard that is. I took them, you have free time on Saturday and Sunday, I took them to school. They hate you forever. I have four children. I managed to do it with [the first] two, and the other two I gave up. I gave up. Because it's really a torture. They speak English, they don't speak Chinese in school, their friends speak English. You ask them to learn a language that's very tough and hard. They wouldn't do it. But fortunate thing, the world's getting smaller. When they go to college they realize that -- there's a language they have to learn. They have to learn. So they major in Chinese in college. And that -- and that -- because of that, I set up a web site thinking that I know something and I may be able to help them to learn Chinese and also know [some things about] Chinese cultures. And not only for them. Because I'm not sure how you affect them. So I put on a web site so that anyone, or my colleagues, can see it, and anyone who would like to know something about Chinese will be able to learn it. Q: Have your kids taken up Chinese? Foo: Oh, yeah. They major in Chinese in college. In college. I was surprised, because, you see, I learned Chinese the traditional way -- you speak, go to school, you read it, and we know, we used to it, to learn it. So we don't use “pinyin” using the alphabet to learn it. But what I found one day, my kids can say Chinese can say Chinese, can read Chinese, and find all the words. And I thought that they could not do it. So I found out -- I went to Internet using “pinyin”, typing “pinyin”, and they can found the Chinese words. And they can write it down. So it triggered me and motivated me to learn that. So by using that tool [“pinyin”], I said, oh, maybe I can tell them what I want to tell them, which I was not successful when they were younger. So [I] try to do that. One of the things I'm very interested in doing is [to teach them] to learn Chinese from painting. And when you look at a lot of Chinese painting, you love them, it looks good, but the -- you know, the words, the calligraphy of some really doesn't make sense to you. You don't know what it is. It looks good, but you don't know what it is. It's very important if you know what they're saying. Because that is part of the painting. One example I tell them, you can see my site, is lotus. Now, you may be surprised why there are so many lotus in Chinese painting. There is something like that. But there -- there's essay -- there was a essay reading on Lotus, and give you a lot of meanings to it. There's a lot of symbolic things that we do that. Well, on the site, I cite the calligraphy, I cite where it come from, I put down the whole essay. But there are a few things that are very important, I think, that they want to learn. Just a few words. It not only help them to build their vocabularies, [but] know the Chinese culture at the same time. So, why Lotus? Lotus is grown from a very dirty, muddy pond. But the flowers are very beautiful. The fragrance is very delight[ful]. It symbolizes the gentleman. You don't have to come from wealthy family. Not to say that's bad. But you can come from any ordinary circumstance. Even from the mud. But you can be a gentleman, and be very good, if you take care of yourself and learn about it. So that's what it is. Q: I'm sorry. Just to back up to Chinatown. As an immigrant coming over, I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about how you've seen Chinatown change. Foo: You see, there are two type of immigrants, the Chinese -- I'm in the fortunate one. Because I'm professional. At that time, during the Korean war, there's a need for physicians. So everything is helping me to establish my -- oh, I'm sorry, Vietnam war -- everything is there to help a doctor establish a practice and help me to raise my family over here. So I don't have to go to a restaurant and be a waiter, or try to get things. I've got my job immediately when I come here. All I need to do is polish up my English, get medical training. But financially, I'm okay. It's different from those who have to change their professions, who have no means of doing what they do well in their countries, to start from nothing. Without language, without place, crammed in Chinatown. The only thing you can do is either go to garment factories, or go to a restaurant and work as a waiter. There's no other jobs for you to do. So it's very miserable for a professor to come here and do that. And in fact one of my teacher came here, stay for two weeks and then went home. Because he could not stand it. I mean, it's very degrading, a principal of a school coming here to be a waiter. So very different things. I'm very fortunate I can be on this side. But for immigrants, a big struggle. Not only that you've changed but you don't have enough money, you have to raise the children, you have to wait from the tables. A lot of times they actually have to work two or three jobs to do that. So they're not taking care of themselves, health-wise or education-wise. So it's very, very sad. But I think you can say that for any immigrants. Not just Chinese, but -- Q: Would you say that's still the case for Chinatown? Foo: Yeah. I mean, those who come over here, unless they're professional, they go to college, study, and do that, yes, they have to struggle for the same thing. That's why garment factories, restaurants is very important for them. With the economy downturn, I think, it's very bad for these immigrants to come here. Now, you go to Chinatown, you go to where they live, you'll be amazed at some -- how small the space is, how they crowd in a place. And how they have to work to make ends meet. Q: Chinatown has such a long history of different waves of immigration, and it seems like there's always kind of a struggle to maintain a community identity, because once an immigrant, say, by second generation, has a bit of success, they're likely to move. Do you have any sense of how that's changed over the years? Do people come back more often now invest as in a way you have in services to the community and to Chinatown? Foo: Well, I guess people who grew up from China had to go out, right? You can't just keep everyone over here. So, especially, you're doing something they are not, limited to local activities. So a lot of people could help. But I wish a lot more Chinese that are successful out there would come back and help [the community]. For example, we have tried to raise money for the hospital, because we have sixty-five percent of population are Chinese. It's hard to have successful Chinese come up from the Chinatown or come here to give us money so they can do more works for the communities. They're happy to give money to Columbia, to Harvard, because there's a prestige in doing it. To help a local community hospital may not be in their mind. But I wish they'd change their mind and help us more, so they can help more people here. Q: Can the hospital appeal to the state or the government, or is it all philanthropy? Foo: Oh yeah, yeah, of course, you know it must be the federal to help us. And if you know, in the last few years we even have Hong Kong -- Hong Kong stars to come and help us to raise money for this Chinese Community Partnership for Health. We have a concert every two years, and we have a lot of community help to help us to do that. So we do have people that want to help us, but we need more. Q: Do you feel like medical institutions like your hospital are, in that sense, insufficiently recognized as important to the community? Foo: No, I think people recognize it's important. The question is whether people will say, 'Okay, I will help you' more -- because you can't have people give you money to spend to use it with a -- with coming up with of the 9/11, and what happened to hospital is -- is we have less fund coming in for us. Now, give you example, right? Let's say, if their operating budget is a hundred million dollars. If your HMO cut down your reimbursement ten percent, well you lost ten million dollars. Everything else is the same. What if your [number of] patients drop, okay, [then] expenses goes up. We're only talking about small money. So we really have to do a lot to try to make the budget meet. But, you know, we do need people to help with that. We need people to help out with -- with the equipments, with things so that we can better service the community. I'm not saying that we don't have, but we need more. Q: So the economic downturn affects everybody. Foo: Yes. Q: Then what would you -- what would you like to see for the future of Chinatown? How do you see the future in Chinatown? Foo: Well, Chinese people are very industrious. They work very hard. They complain not that much. I think, you know, I want the Chinatown to prosper. What I can see there is that unless the economy change, it's maybe hard, now. We rely on garment factories, restaurants, tourists to this place. We have [a lot of] problem after 9/11. So it would be hard for us to do things. With new immigrants coming in they probably will concentrate in this area because the language issues, so we need more people working on that, giving them resources. Now, things that I mentioned earlier about the Asian Health Center establish, and we can do a lot more things for the community. This will help them help us to identify the problem, and help their health needs. The other thing I'd like to do is let more people interested in Chinese culture. I think it's very important. If you talk to people and people interested in your culture know what you are, it's a way of communicating. And that's why I put some of my efforts in “learning Chinese”. Not to say Chinese is superior than any other language, but it's a kind of culture for the last 5,000 years. There's something that's there that we can help other people to understand. So language is a problem. But you make it easy, which the computer that we have, and the new software that we have, other people will understand us more, and it will be great for America because we have a multi-culture society and it all works together, we know each other well, we can probably make this country a better place. Q: Thank you. Foo: Okay. Q: Is there anything you would like to say before we finish? Foo: I’d like to work with the museum [Laughter] I was thinking about the -- giving more for the museum standpoint -- is giving more about the Chinese culture. It's one of the things I think, that I come across, is about the last name, surname thing. My father is very interesting, gave me about twenty volumes of the Foo genealogy that's published in different times. From that I can trace by my ancestor -- direct ancestor -- up to the first one. And even more than that. So I think that's very important, is how we trace our ancestors. How in the world you can know that. There are generation poem that we have. So, you know, most of the Chinese have three names, right? We don't have last name, we have surname. The surname is the first one. And the last one actually is your own name. In the middle is a generation name. You get your generation name from a generation poem. So if we both had the same surname, if I tell you what my middle name is you know my rank in the family. We sort of lost that nowadays, but I think it's something that might be interesting people to understand, our Chinese culture, how it comes. So I want to talk to the museum about that. Q: So there's a cultural history there that is -- as you were saying, it's so much more than just Chinatown as a tourist spot. Foo: Right. Right. Right. It's important for people to understand how Chinese functions, how Chinese structure is, yes. So there's what’s in reading of name. Actually there’s a lot of classics, too, look at my site. I'm working on that. Q: All right. Thank you so much. Foo: Okay. Nice to talk to you. Anything I can do, let me know. [END OF INTERVIEW] Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh) 問：今天是2004年7月14日。我是Ingrid Dudek，唐人街文件專案（Chinatown Documentation Project）。你能不能先講一下你的姓名？ FOO：Sun-Hoo Foo博士。 問：還有你的職業。 FOO：我是醫生。 問：我今天採訪的內容是關於你個人以及你的職業背景，主要是圍繞唐人街和唐人街社區的醫療需要，尤其是關於9/11事件。我們先談一下你的背景。 FOO：好的。我是在紐約大學讀的醫學院。那是在1976年，Bellevue醫院。那個時候別人跟我講，“如果你在急診室裏看到中國病人，他們應該是已經病得很重了。如果他們的病不重，他們不會來看醫生的。”因此，要多注意一下他們。在那之後，我在---我的辦公室在34街。過了很長一段時間，差不多是一年之後，才有病人到那裏看病。因此，我後來在這裏租了間辦公室，方便他們就醫。現在，對於很多中國人來講，“上城就像是國外一樣。很長時間之後他們才會去那裏。主要是語言上的障礙。他們不知道怎麽去。他們不知道怎麽去，他們怕去陌生的地方。因此除非他們病得很重，否則他們是不會去Bellevue的。”看來，這種說法是有一定根據的。我想在基礎醫療方面現狀也依然如此。我的工作與唐人街社區的關係十分密切。我是神經科主任---我是市醫院神經科的主任。我也是院裏董事會的成員。我們還有一個基金會，叫做CCPH---華人社區醫療健康合作基金會（Chinese Community Partnership for Health）---我們在唐人街地區做很多醫療檢查和健康教育，因爲我們知道這裏存在這些問題。在CCPH從事的衆多工作裏面包括 我出版的若干關於中風的文章。現在，很有意思的是---我會告訴你我爲什麽這麽講---如果你居住在唐人街地區附近，有官方統計“低年齡人的中風發病率大約是50％，是美國發病率最高的地區。我講的‘低年齡人’是指六十歲以下的人。”我們也統計過市醫院的病人。我們發現“我們中風病人的年齡普遍比曼哈頓[北部]人口低七歲”，北部---有人對曼哈頓北部不同種族中風患者做過調查。他們調查了---黑人，西班牙人，但不包括中國人。我們拿自己的情況跟他們的檢查結果做比較，發現我們患者的年齡要比他們小七歲。在患中風的病人當中，他們多數患有腦溢血。你要知道，國內腦溢血的發病率大約是百分之八，但在下城是24%。患腦溢血會給你肢體帶來諸多不便和問題。我們發現，儘管我們還不能確定這是否有遺傳因素，但我們知道大多數病人都還有高血壓，並且從未接受過治療。我們也同我們在華人社區醫療健康合作基金會統計的資料做過比較。我們有更多高血壓的病歷和未接受過治療的高血壓的病歷。或者是接受過治療，但沒有堅持跟進。我們還有很多糖尿病和高膽醇血病歷，因此我們知道所有這些方面的資料。同時，我很高興最近能與紐約大學合作。他們從NIH得到一筆經費，針對少數裔族存在的特殊健康問題而準備籌建一個亞裔健康中心，現在搞得還不錯。他們正計劃在Bellevue設立一個肝臟中心，今後將會設其他方面的中心。我希望我們能爲社區做更多的事情。 問：顯然，你在唐人街醫療社區投入了很多。我想先打斷一下，請再稍微談一下你在中城工作的情況，是怎樣看到華人對醫療健康問題的看法而使你決定要搬到下城來的？你是什麽時候開始在下城執業的？ FOO：我很早就在下城醫院工作。但診所是在六年前開的。 問：在近二十多年以來，你都定期來這裏嗎？ FOO：是的。 問：在你看來，從時間順序上來講，唐人街的醫療資源都有哪些變化，例如都有哪些服務，以及人們是怎樣看待醫療系統的？ FOO：我想這要從兩個方面來講。一個是那些沒有保險的人，新移民，和那些在這裏工作的美國公民。你要知道我們有一個醫學團體叫作CAMS---美籍華人醫學協會---是從50年代開始創立的。現在越搞越大，我們有大約800個會員，大多是本地的。在這些會員中，我們又成立了CAIPA，美籍華人IPA[獨立執業協會]。我們與牛津合作---我們有一個由大約兩百名醫生組成的健康醫療系統，Kwan Tak博士是這個CAMS的主席。我們是最成功的IPA之一，而且是唯一一個面向華人社區的。現在，我們跟其他IPA不同的地方之一就是我們的醫生工作非常努力。他們星期六和星期日也在工作，很晚才關門。我們的醫生，我們的主席Kwan Tak博士有時工作到淩晨十二點。這樣，我們同病人有更多的交流。尤其是那些打兩份或三份工的病人，他們在工作時間不方便看醫生。工作對於他們來講要更加重要。因此，他們周末的時候來這裏看病。因此，我想，從這個方面來講，我們跟他們一直都有聯繫。而且因爲文化方面的因素，我們可能比其他人更加瞭解他們的問題---跟其他醫生相比。唐人街健康診所，也叫作Charles Wang，爲社區做了很多事情。對於那些沒有保險但負擔得起醫療費用的病人，他們的確提供了非常好的服務。但下城醫院，如我剛才提到，我們有專門爲這些社區提供服務的診所。我們設立了唐人街醫療健康合作基金會---抱歉，不是這個名字，華人社區醫療健康合作基金會---負責定期的檢查工作，無線電透視。在不同的公衆場所和醫院診所做健康宣傳，我和我們辦公室的Tao博士、Leung博士要在世界日報上刊登一個半月刊的健康欄目，由編輯部記者[Eva Pan]撰稿。在文章末印有我們的熱線電話號碼，方便病人同我們聯繫。因此，如果他們有任何關於健康方面的問題，或者醫療保險問題，都能夠打電話跟我們聯繫。這是由下城醫院CCPH人員負責的。有時，我會收到從溫哥華或佛羅里達打來的求助電話。我們就是這樣爲社區提供服務幫助他們的。 問：所有這些專業系統在一定程度上使得社區能夠利用自己的醫療資源。他們是否也幫助那些沒有醫療保險的人？ FOO：只是唐人街健康診所，Charles Wang社區中心。但是，從職業角度上來講，還有更激動人心的事情。CAMS---美籍華人醫學協會---不僅是當地而且是 全國性的機構。我們也設立了一個國際性組織，叫作美籍華人醫學協會聯盟（Federation of Chinese American Medical Society），我們與多倫多、溫哥華的中國醫生合作，探討華人社區的一些問題。我們每兩年舉行一次會議，國際會議，在這裏和舊金山。今年十月將是第十二次會議，探討中國患者的問題。我剛才跟你提到的，比如中風問題，要在那裏提出來，這樣大家都會知道。你會在我們的網站上看到相關的摘要。因此，我們盡力爲社區服務，儘量使人們對這些問題産生興趣。因爲我們確實有一些不相關的，或是其他社區的一些不重要的問題。但是這很重要，不解決的話，會成爲全國性的大問題。唐人街---華人社區醫療健康合作基金會不久前做了一項關於學校乙肝的調查。我們得到全國的回應，大家都去接種乙肝疫苗，因爲在我們社區乙肝非常流行。幾乎變成流行病，你不得不去治療。 問：是從哪里傳染來的？ FOO：乙肝？是來自孩子，我們發現，同在這裏出生的人相比，移民有很高的發病率。而且會通過性方式傳染。因此，如果你不治療，最終會成爲一個健康的大問題，你會染上乙肝、肝硬化和肝細胞瘤。因此，實際上是我們開始---，下城紐約大學開始這個專案的。 問：你剛才曾提到，所有這些組織的優勢之一是他們專門面向華人社區，瞭解相關的文化因素。你能否再談一下你所觀察到的與華人就醫需要相關的問題嗎？ FOO：你知道，中國有一套傳統的治療疾病的方法，關於陰和陽，熱和冷的理論。如果你不懂這些，治療起來非常困難。大多數患者不喜歡去醫院是因爲他們有語言障礙，而且習俗也不一樣。例如，我們這樣做了很長時間，即當他們去醫院的時候，他們要喝熱水。他們想要喝溫水。他們不想喝冷水，因爲冷的東西對身體有害。你要是叫醫護人員給你熱水，他們以爲你有問題。“不，我們喝冷水。”我是說，諸如此類的小事會給你帶來麻煩。再有， 他們不習慣吃西方的食物，因此下城專門請了做中餐的廚師，這樣使他們感覺舒服一些。對於那些住院的病人，所有這些小事情都會有很大影響。另外一件事就是毛毯。在睡覺的時候，你不想蓋太多的毛毯。但習慣上，他們都覺得冷，想要兩或者三張毛毯。那些醫護人員---他們覺得，你瘋了，你想要三或四條毛毯對你沒有好處。但他們已經習慣了這些。所以，如此的小事情會帶來很多的不便。這些都是你要處理的事情。 問：我也想知道---你曾經提到無線廣播裏和報紙上有一些拓廣服務的專案。那些是否使用中文，以及是如何運作的？ FOO：是中文的。儘管這是一個非常小的社區，但我想我們這裏至少有五或者六份中文報紙，或者更多。對於成人來講，學習第二種語言相當困難，尤其是同時打三份工，而且又要照顧家庭。因此，我剛才提到的這些都是中文的，我們儘量使用他們的語言來開展工作，然後提供給他們所需的資訊。 問：我想要談一下大的方面，比如你談到一些醫療機構對服務某一特定群體感興趣等一些積極的事情。你覺得是否一貫都如此？ FOO：我覺得現在是有這種動力。我是說，這種動力越來越大。我覺得以前沒有。亞裔健康中心剛剛建立，是由NIH，NIH的經費創立的。在過去，沒有人關心這些。現在，我想，能夠到這種地步的原因在於有很多人在這方面努力。社區，醫生，我們過去一直都致力於這些事情。同時，醫院也在盡力。你要知道，下城醫院百分之六十的病人是亞裔。他們一直努力試圖設立一個委員會。華人健康診所也已創辦了---我想是二十年了。我不知道確切的時間。所有這一切使我們大家認識到---，我們大家都知道這是重要的。而且，當時我們也很高興。現在，有更多的人對這些感興趣。 問：你是否認爲是下城人口狀況的變化使得人們不得不對此做出反應。 FOO：是的。我想人們更加在意---，對少數裔族的問題更敏感，因爲他們不僅被孤立，而且他們非常重要。同時，他們不僅影響社區本身，而且如果這些問題不處理好會影響到整個國家。因此，如果你看以前的文章報告，我們在談大多數人口，我們談白人，我們談西班牙人，我們談黑人，但沒有多少關於亞裔的。但亞裔人口在不斷增長。下城這裏的亞裔人口每年增長大約百分之十四。他們也在變老。而且，很多也患疾病了。所以我想，我們需要正視這些問題。 問：那麽，在此之前，是不是有很多民間組織在做這些拓廣服務的工作？ FOO：確實沒有人做這些。我想亞裔健康中心是第一個試圖用---，把大家組織起來處理這些問題的。我很高興---例如，我剛提到已經建立了肝臟中心。於是，馬上有很多乙肝，肝硬化，肝細胞瘤患者到那裏。但在這個階段之前，很多社區民衆在做這些事情，照顧病人，反映情況。在不久之前，我想，我們舉行了一次地方會議---這是由白宮發起的---去不同的地方談論健康問題。下城醫院，美籍華人醫學協會，以及加利福尼亞相應的組織---那裏有一家華人醫院---要做這項研究，他們調查了一些老年人，搜集所有的資訊。我們大家都去到會議廳談論這個問題。我不知道是否是因爲這件事引起的，但我想這至少有幫助。因爲大家都有興趣，能夠在一起努力，解決這個問題。 問：9/11後的問題如何？因爲我知道很多人抱怨或擔心下城空氣中有毒素，而且針對下城社區設立了專門的醫療委員會。他們有沒有過問過唐人街社區？你對後9/11時期的問題感想如何？ FOO：9/11是個非常有創傷力的經歷。我自己深有體會，因爲我們的醫院就在Ground Zero，儘管沒有人談起過這些。因爲我們就在那裏，那裏沒有電，沒有電話，但我們仍在那裏工作，就是憑著員工的這種精神，他們盡力了。我們實際上是用手提電話聯繫。而且我們有一台應急發電機。甚至在那個艱難時刻，我們也盡力幫助社區，提供飲水，照料醫院老年人中心的病人。而且，因爲封了路，病人到我們這裏來更不方便，於是我們準備了一輛車接送社區裏的病人。因此，幫助還是比較及時的，但我想在那之後這個地區的經濟遭受了重大損失。這會影響到有醫療保險的病人。因爲他們失去了工作，沒有事情做。關於他們談到的對肺部影響的問題，我想紐約大學派了一個小組來這裏，我想他們對接觸到毒素的人做了登記，想看一下會有什么後遺症。我是神經學醫生，不是肺病專家，對這方面瞭解不多。但我想他們---有人看這些。我不知道這是否足夠。但這確實需要花費很多精力和經費來做。我不知道現在進展如何。但幾年之後可能會有結果，這些接觸是否會對我們的肺有更多的影響。但我想主要是經濟上的損失，因爲我們失去了很多病人。由於失業，他們也失去了保險。他們沒錢看病。所以，這會是一個問題。 問：有沒有什麽方面做出一些努力來改善這種狀況，在經濟損失和醫療保險方面？ FOO：我想在工作上我們大家都想得到幫助。比如，我在下城上班，在工作上我跟他們的關係很密切。因爲這個問題，病人不能來這裏看病。因爲來的人更少，我們幫不了他們。於是，我們想從聯邦政府和慈善機構那裏獲得一些幫助，解決醫院的經費問題。使我們有能力服務社區。我們在尋求幫助。我們---我們看到---很多人提供幫助，我們需要更多的幫助。 問：我知道你是搞神經學的，但我想你能不能從整體上談一下9/11對唐人街的影響，籠統地講或者在醫療需要方面？ FOO：我們有Charles Wang。理論上，他們會幫助任何需要幫助的人。不管你是否有錢，是否有保險，他們都會幫你的。但問題是因爲經濟在走下坡路， 病人是否還有時間關心自己的健康問題。我剛才提到過，因爲“當你在急診室裏看到他們的時候，他們已經病得不輕了，否則他們不會來這裏的。”因此，你必須---因爲他們要維持生活---他們沒時間看醫生。你可以去唐人街健康診所或者下城醫院，如果他們來尋求幫助，我們應該幫他們。我們確實鼓勵他們來。但問題是他們能不能來，你知道，因爲---他們必須要照顧到另外一個方面。因此，我想我們這裏需要很多幫助。我們必須要重振唐人街經濟。 問：很多報告關注是否石棉對此有影響，但通過你我們得知更多的是機構設置的問題，是否有渠道幫助他們。 FOO：是的。我想如果他們能來這裏，我們會給他們更多的幫助的。而不是說有沒有哮喘或其他病的增加。我想，是的，他們受到了影響。我想強調的另外一件事就是一些機構想要做一些調查[手提電話響]，看能否對這些後果做些研究。如果對我們有影響的話，看能否找到更好的治療方式。 問：你對此有什麽期望，比如，希望在將來看到一些尚未提出的醫學問題會得到解決。 FOO：你不只是講9/11，是不是？好的。我們有我們自己的事情。比如，鼻咽癌。患病的都是中國人或亞洲人，而不是其他種族的。與這相關的有很多事情。中風問題，我們爲什么有這麽人患腦溢血？是因爲他們患有高血壓而沒有得到醫治，還是說是遺傳基因造成的？這些健康上的問題，有一點變化就會造成風險係數的改變。還有公共醫療健康的問題，我們要向公衆多做宣傳教育，幫助他們。肝細胞瘤，乙肝，我剛才提到，“如果你看到大的肝臟，一定是亞洲人，通常是一個腫瘤。”如果是其他種族，可能是肝臟大，或者是脂肪多。但你看到中國人肝大就不是這個原因。在我上醫學院的時候，別人跟我講---我在臺灣學的醫---“如果你看到中國病人肝大，他一定是患了肝細胞瘤，不會是其他的。”我們都知道這些。像TB之類的傳染病，這些移民可能是肺部受到傳染，如果不及時醫治，他們老了之後就會有問題。所有這些問題都有待於進一步的調查和研究。 現在，[傳呼機響]傳統上人們認爲中國人是典型患病少的少數裔族。我們也總是認爲我們身體好，我們的膽固醇低，但是你沒有看到統計，實際上我們的膽固醇是很高的。也許是因爲我們在這裏吃西餐，但這總是一個問題。並不是說，你人瘦，就不會有膽固醇高的問題。我們有很多人患骨質疏鬆症，盆骨或其他部位骨折。這或許是因爲遺傳基因，或者是因爲環境，我們吃的食物，要不就是我們鍛煉的不夠。因此，我們還是有很多問題的。現在，劉博士[CAIPA主席]感興趣的問題之一就是我們甚至還沒有我們自己的資料。骨質疏鬆症的資料只是對西方人的統計，而不是亞洲人的資料。我們應該解決這個問題，做些統計。我們建立的這個亞洲人健康中心就是要鼓勵人們申請經費，做研究，調查所有這些問題。我想在今後幾年裏，我們應該專注亞洲人的健康問題，來幫助自己，讓更多的人對這方面感興趣。 問：這些都是你認爲只有中國人或者華人社區才存在的問題。你能否講的更具體一點，你主要看哪些背景，或哪個年齡段的病人？ FOO：是我自己嗎？ 問：是的。 FOO：我看很多病人---我是成年人神經學家---所以我主要看成年病人。因爲神經學的特點，我們看很多中風的老年人，或帕金森病患者。最終，我服務的病人會是老年人。我同時也看很多年輕人，很多偏頭痛患者，很多患背痛的患者，[傳呼機響]類似的一些病症。 問：從這個角度上來看，我想知道你在下城執業的過程中你的病人的組成是否有變化，在移民的人口上或經濟背景方面… FOO：隨著近期醫療保險的調整，新出來的HMO，在我能看的病和在哪里看這兩個方面會有很大變化。我以前在醫院裏看了很多中風患者，現在仍然是這樣。但是，我們醫院現在沒有這麽多病人了，因爲我們都讓他們儘早出院。 因此，在醫院看病沒有那麽---我們更多時候是出診。當然，這取決於你在哪里工作。我有兩種病人。一種是年輕的，工作階層，覺得有很大壓力或者患偏頭痛，以及背痛。那麽，這是一部分病人。但對於老年病人，他們很多患有中風，帕金森病患者，和其他一些慢性病。 問：這些人看病主要是用HMO或其他---？ FOO：是的，HMO或Medicaid，只是老年病人。 問：我想再談回9/11的問題，你能否再講一下醫院裏發生的事情，以及9/11之後發生的事情。 FOO：如果你9/11當天在那裏，你會非常吃驚看到那些員工的奉獻精神。在事發的時候，我在紐約大學。我正在開會。出來之後看到世貿中心在冒煙。我立即想我要過來。於是，我去到車庫把車開了出來，我在紐約大學兜了三圈，但過不來，因爲道路都被封了。我是說，警察很快就把路封了。我不知道該怎麽辦。我想很多人也不知道該怎樣。但我---我打電話給在哥倫比亞大學的女兒，她說，‘你爲什么不叫警察？’於是，我就想問一下警察。我說，‘我必須要去下城，因爲我在那裏工作。’沒有問題，他們立即讓我過去了。但當我到了的時候已經太晚了，因爲兩座姊妹樓都已經倒了。在那一刹那，我想，急診室裏會有四百多個身上覆滿塵土的病人，這些醫院會照料好的。在我到的時候已經沒有人在等了，大家都在外面等救護車。我們看到救護車進來，又開走，但沒有病人。我們看到進來的大多數是受了傷的工人，消防隊員和警察，十分悲慘。但是，我可以告訴你，每個人都在盡力幫忙，除了幫病人以外，沒有人講其他的事情。醫院蓋滿了塵土，沒有電，電話線也斷了，但大家都在那裏等著幫助別人。情景十分感人。 問：然後呢？ FOO：在那之後，我想在那之後，我們大家的確十分努力工作，我們確實有很多不便，因爲電話打不通，又沒有電，很難在那裏工作。但每個人士氣都很高，互相幫助，幫助每一個人。我們去附近的地方提供幫助。我想那個時候Logan醫生要讓醫生和護士去附近的老年人家裏，但我們去不了。我們給他們帶去水，想照料他們。我覺得這樣非常好。我們就僅有的資源盡力做更多的事情。在那之後，又過了很長時間才恢復通電。 問：持續了有多久？ FOO：我實在不記得。這是很久之前的事了。但我記得等了很長一段時間。沒有人說，比如，什麽時候發工資，是否生病了，或者有沒有加班費，類似的事情---他們就這樣做了。這樣很好。你看到很多好心人。對此你很開心。在那之後，我們確實有很多不便，因爲有很多路障。病人不能夠到醫院裏來，因爲他們不得不穿過所有這些路障---有一些甚至現在還在那裏。病人不能到醫院來，這樣我們就會有問題，因爲他們不能夠過來找我們。但我想現在是沒有這個問題了。 問：多久之後才又大致恢復正常？ FOO：醫院裏？ 問：是的。 FOO：啊--- [第一盤第一面結束；第一盤第二面開始] FOO：啊，是過了一段時間，我想直到現在還未完全恢復正常，因爲這影響了我們的---周圍地區的聲譽，直到現在。Chatham廣場現在還在封著，因此從那裏很難走那條路線到醫院。而且，你也不能走FBI，那裏有個學校和幾幢樓。因此，我們設立了免費接送唐人街 病人的服務。我們把他們接到醫院來。但這仍然不是很方便。但無論如何，我們都想方設法解決。我們盡了全力。 問：那個時候唐人街民衆的感覺如何？ FOO：對於9/11？ 問：9/11之後。 FOO：很糟糕。那個時候，我記得---我從來沒有看到Mott街上的店鋪關門的。我想在9/11之後不久，我看到Mott街上兩三家餐館關門了，這以前從來沒有發生過。所有的衣廠---我聽說這地區大概有一百多家衣廠關閉，因爲你不能把這裏生産出的産品運出去。不通車，你出不去。再加上他們已經快不行了，這樣一下子就關閉了。我聽說現在，你要想在唐人街租寫字樓很容易，因爲衣廠空出來很多地方。所以，很容易租到，因此也使得租金下降。但是，如果你瞭解唐人街，Chatham廣場那些關了的地方正是旅遊汽車和公共汽車站。遊客要從Mott街車站開始，圍繞唐人街觀光。那裏沒有車，就不會有交通。因此，這裏很安靜。現在是好了一些，但那個時候，9/11期間，即使你想去餐館消費，你進去之後也只是你一個人在餐館裏面。因此，這嚴重地影響了經濟。這是肯定的。 問：從什麽時候開始有其他的醫療機構對尤其是唐人街的醫療需要作出反應？你提過Charles Wang，但唐人街還有聯邦政府和州政府的支援。他們有沒有幫助唐人街？ FOO：是的。我想所有事情都是地方做的，是本地社區做的。Charles Wang診所，下城醫院，和一些醫生，他們義務照顧一些特定的病人。實際上，當飛機撞上的時候，很多中國醫生都在下城。一下子，社區裏的人主動關掉他們的店鋪和辦公室，來到醫院義務服務。很遺憾事件發生的時候，我們的醫生比病人還要多，但確實有很多人來幫忙。有的時候---我想 在那個時候，事件發生的時候，大多數辦公室都關門了。不是說醫生不想過來，而是他們過不來。你來不了。病人也沒有辦法就醫。我在醫院裏待了一段時間，因此醫院一直開門。需要醫療照顧的人都能進來。因此我想都是當地的努力。當然，這不像SARS，用不著動員整個國家。倒沒有這個必要。大概都是當地的努力。很多人都很忙，在那段時間都不知道發生了什麽事情。我想倒沒有什麽特殊的需要。那時，我兒子還是醫科院學生。他們去了---一個在西邊的---政府實際上在Chelsea一帶建了一個手術室，那裏有很多手術臺。但是，那裏並沒有用上。一切都已經安排好了。我想政府對這個災難事件的反應十分迅速。但實在是沒有病人需要他們的幫助。 問：不是那些方面的幫助。 FOO：不是那些方面的幫助，沒錯。 問：你認爲這種影響將是長期的還是--- FOO：是的。將來會發生什么事情。但我想無論發生什麽樣的緊急事件，幾秒之內就會發生。在那之後不會有任何幫助的。 問：你提到對SARS的恐懼。你對那個的經歷怎樣？有什麽不同？ FOO：是個不好的經歷。我想聽起來要更加糟糕。當時，儘管我們知道唐人街還沒有SARS，別人看到我們說，‘你是中國人，你一定有SARS。’因此那時沒有人到唐人街餐館來吃飯。如果你看到有人在這裏，那一定是中國人，因爲我們要支援社區，我們要來這裏。沒有任何事情---人們擔心染上SARS，認爲會在這裏受到傳染。但很幸運，我們這裏沒有SARS，但不幸的是這嚴重影響了這裏的經濟。 問：這要持續多長時間？ FOO：我很難講確切的時間，但的確持續了很長一段時間。是這樣的。我想現在經濟形式有了好轉，但仍有很多的事情要做。其他的我就不知道了。我是說，我只是醫生，我不懂經濟，但我想你可以做很多事情來刺激經濟的發展。 問：我想再換個話題---因爲你提到你的兒子在讀醫學院，我想再瞭解一下你個人的情況，因爲你是在臺灣國立大學接受的訓練--- FOO：是的。 問：你是在臺灣長大的嗎？ FOO：不是。 問：在哪里--- FOO：我在馬來西亞出生。在汶萊長大，去臺灣讀的醫學院。我想---我的家人分散到各地，一些在澳大利亞，有一個在加拿大。那時我父親從中國去了馬來西亞，因爲躲避戰亂。於是，我們就到了那裏。 問：你是什麽時候來美國的？ FOO：我想實際情況是在馬來西亞和汶萊生活很困難，因爲你擔心得不到身份。儘管我工作非常努力，對人也很友善---我在很多地方都有很多朋友。我在臺灣的時候，實際上，我有一些朋友，對中藥非常感興趣。那是在臺灣國立大學。在我畢業的時候，我們的CR，即主任，把Harrison整本內科教科書翻譯成中文。希望我們能夠用中文學習，這樣也容易和我們的病人交流。這是我們做的第一件事。在此之後，我們又出版了一個叫作今日醫藥的刊物，主要針對使用中文的執業醫生，使他們熟悉中文的醫藥術語。還有，我們面向公衆出了一本雜誌，叫作健康世界， 現在還有。我很自豪能夠做這些。而且，那時，美國是你學醫深造的地方。於是我父親建議，‘你爲什麽不去美國，多學習一些知識？’這樣，我就到這裏來了。很幸運，我去了Bridgeport的St. Vicent’s，之後又去了紐約大學學神經學。畢業之後，因爲我在Bellevue的經驗，知道亞洲人如果病得不重不會去醫院的。我想，也許我應該來唐人街，更加接近他們。這樣就開始了這些事情。 問：你翻譯醫學教科書是不是因爲中文的教育系統不是很規範？ FOO：在那個時候，美國的醫療技術是最發達的，因此所有先進、最新的知識都來自美國。中國人接觸不到這些。因此，如果我們能把它們翻譯成中文，我們能使更多的醫生和病人看到這些材料，是一件好事情，於是就這樣做了。那時十分有趣的一件事情就是心理學，有一個精神科醫生，Tseng博士，在夏威夷學的醫。他回來之後創辦了很多事情---對我們的影響很大。他翻譯了很多精神病學的書籍，包括Freud的夢的解析---我和我的一些朋友也有參與。我們想把那些知識帶到中國。說到這裏，其實唐人街地區在精神健康方面確實有很多問題。我不知道你是否知道這裏老年婦女的自殺率非常高。因爲大多數移民到這裏之後受到不同文化的衝擊，他們忙於工作，照顧家人。他們的孩子儘管很出色，但他們不一定和他們的父母有同樣的文化或想法。因此，那些移民年紀大了之後，退休之後，就變得很迷茫，不知道要去哪里。經常看到一些中國病人，老年病人，患憂鬱症。他們非常憂鬱，因爲他們想是他們死的時候了。沒有別的什么事情要做。因此，Chung博士，Henry Chung，一名精神科醫生，想申請經費，致力於這裏精神病方面的工作。我認爲這非常好。同時，剛成立的亞裔健康中心的部分職責也包括這些方面。在二十幾年前，我們就需要做一些事情，現在是時候了。 問：實際上你剛才提到過這個，只不過是用另外一種方式，即使西方醫學更加符合中國文化的需要。你是否覺得心理學很難對中國人適用，因爲它屬於純西方的文化？ FOO：我想你必須要考慮文化因素。中國和西方非常不同。我甚至不理解---中國名著之一叫作“紅樓夢”。如果你讀過，你會知道它主要是講中國的文化結構如何，家庭結構如何，而我們每個人作爲個體是不重要的---家庭是重要的。而你重要是因爲你在家庭裏重要。所以，賈寶玉，裏面的男主角，只不過是個普通人，但因爲他將繼承---他要成爲家庭的代言人，所以大家都要對他示好，並且使他成爲很重要的人物。如果你失去那個身份，你將不會處在那個地位。所以，在中國文化中，我們大家都是整個家庭的一部分，而不是獨立的。這種思想對於受西方教育的人來講是很難接受的。這裏的中國第二代移民吸收了美國的文化。這有很大的不同，我想甚至在中國，由於世界變得越來越小，很多事情都變了。因此，你需要---你確實要考慮這些因素。看精神科醫生對一個中國人來講是很困難的，因爲這是一種恥辱---你“瘋了”，所以你才要去看病。但這不是事實。我是說，有一些事情你不能講，而整個價值觀念在改變，因此我認爲我們要努力幫助自己人。 問：也許這是另外一個需要。 FOO：是的。這是最重要的需要，我想。健康，精神健康問題，是每個人都忽視的最重要的需要。很少看西方精神科醫生的另外一個原因是文化差異。人們的表達方式完全不同。也許有一些你想說的東西你不能用英語表達，那他就是幫不到你。 問：是不是有什麽大規模的中國心理學運動或精神病學團體？ FOO：我想我們剛剛開始搞。當然有---，現在美國有很多亞裔人。有更多的亞裔人學醫，他們中的一些將成爲心理學家。 問：再稍微打斷一下--- FOO：好的。 問：你剛才講過，在臺灣之後，你又來到美國，在那個時候你開始對這裏的華人社區感興趣。你在唐人街住嗎？ FOO：我不住在唐人街。我住在新澤西。我開始的時候想---剛開始的時候，我還是住院醫生。我住在Water Tower---那裏有一座樓。後來，我沒錢住那裏了。我想我來這裏的時候和其他移民一樣，兩手空空。因此，如果我用我的全部薪水交房租，我的孩子會不高興的，他們會非常失望的。於是，我決定搬到Elmhurst住，我的朋友也幫了我一些忙。當我的孩子長大了一些的時候，我想，他們想更加融入美國文化和社會，因此我能做的唯一的事情就是去郊區，在那裏他們會很高興有很多---住很多房間。於是，我又搬到新澤西，Jersey北部，在那裏把他們帶大。 問：但儘管如此，很明顯在職業上以及你本人方面，你仍然和華人以及華人社區有密切的聯繫。 FOO：是的。 問：在Jersey有華人社區嗎？ FOO：沒有。 問：你住的附近？ FOO：我住的地方是一個非常小的社區，但我主要的活動都是在唐人街和Elmhurst。在我的孩子很小的時候，我送他們去中文學校。如果你家裏是中國家庭，你知道這有多麽困難。我帶他們---，我星期六和星期日休息，帶他們去學校。他們會恨你一輩子。我有四個孩子。我設法讓老大、老二上中文學校，後兩個我就放棄了。我放棄了。因爲這的確是一種折磨。他們講英文，他們不在學校講中文，他們的朋友講英文。你讓他們學習一種非常難的語言。他們就是不學。但幸運的是，世界將變得越來越小。當他們上大學的時候，他們會意識到---有一種語言他們不得不學。他們必須要學。因此，他們在大學裏主修中文。因爲這個原因，我建了個網站，心想我懂得一些， 也許能夠幫助他們學中文，並且讓他們瞭解中國文化。而且，不僅僅是他們。因爲我不知道這會對他們有多大影響。於是，我建了個網站，這樣任何人，包括我的同事，能夠看到，任何人如果對中文感興趣都可以學習。 問：你的孩子都在學中文嗎？ FOO：是的。他們在大學主修中文。我很驚奇，因爲我是按照傳統方式學的中文---平時你講中文，在學校你讀中文，我們已經習慣這種學習方式。因此，我們不用“拼音”學。但有一天我發現我的孩子能講中文，能讀中文，找這些字。我以爲他們不能做這些。於是我就查---，我上網，鍵入“pinyin，”他們就能找到中文字。而且，他們能寫下來。這就促使我自己也學這個。因此，通過那個工具[“pinyin”]，我想，也許我能告訴他們所有我想告訴他們的事情，而這些在他們小的時候我還做不到。因此我在試著做這些。我非常感興趣的事情之一就是在繪畫中教他們學中文。當你看很多中國繪畫的時候，你非常喜歡，看起來也美，但字，一些書法就很難看懂。你不知道是什么。看起來漂亮，但你不知道是什么。知道那些內容很重要。因爲那是繪畫的一部分。我跟他們講的一個例子，你可以看我的網站，就是蓮。你可能很奇怪爲什么中國繪畫中有這麽多蓮。有一篇論文專門講蓮，講它所代表的很多涵義。我們這樣做是有很多象徵意義的。我的網站上有這些書法，有它們的出處，我把整篇文章都貼在那裏。但有幾樣非常重要的事情是他們要學的。只是幾個字。這不僅幫助他們擴大辭彙量，但同時也可以瞭解中國文化。那麽，爲什么是蓮呢？蓮長在很肮髒，很泥濘的池塘裏。但蓮花是非常美麗的。花的味道也很香。它象徵著君子。你用不著出生在富庶的家庭裏。倒不是說這樣不好。但你可以來自任何普通的環境，甚至是泥裏。但你可以是一位君子，一個很好的人，只要你自己懂得如何照料自己。這就是它的涵義。 問：很抱歉。我想再談回唐人街。作爲來這裏的移民，你能否談一下你眼中的唐人街有哪些變化？ FOO：中國移民一共有兩大類---我是幸運的一類，因爲我有自己的專業。在朝鮮戰爭時期，醫生很緊缺。這些都幫我建立我的---啊，不好意思，是越南戰爭---這一切都會幫助醫生職業，幫助我在這裏建立一個家庭。因此，我不必去幹餐館做服務員，或做其他事情。我來這裏之後很快就找到了工作。我所要做的事情就是提高我的英文，接受醫學訓練。但經濟上我還過得去。那些不得不改變他們的專業的人就不同了，他們不能從事在自己國家從事的事業，由零開始。沒有語言能力，沒有地方住，只好擠在唐人街。你能做的唯一一件事情便是去衣廠，或者去餐館做服務員。你不能做其他的工作。因此，一個教授來這裏做這些是很悲慘的。實際上，我的一個老師來到這裏，待了兩個星期之後又回去了，因爲他受不了這些。我是說，這很貶低人，一個學校的校長來這裏端盤子。因此，這是很不同的事情。我很幸運屬於第一類。但對於很多移民，這是很大的挑戰。不光是有這些變化，你也沒有錢，你還要養活孩子，你不得不端盤子。很多時候，他們不得不打兩份或三份工來維持生活。因此，他們沒有太照顧自己，健康上或者教育上。因此，這很悲傷。我想這是很多移民的情況。不僅是中國人，而且--- 問：你認爲這仍然是唐人街的情況嗎？ FOO：是的。我是說，那些來到這裏的人，除非他們有自己的專業，他們上學，讀書，不得不做同樣的努力。這就是爲什麽衣廠、餐館對他們非常重要。如果經濟不好，我想那些移民在這裏的生活也不好過。如果你去唐人街，看他們住的地方，你將很吃驚---地方會有多么小，他們是怎樣擠在一個小地方，以及他們不得不打廉價工度日。 問：在很長一段時間，唐人街有不同的移民潮，似乎總是在努力保持社區的身份，因爲一旦移民，或者是他們的第二代，有一點兒成功，他們就會搬走的。你認爲這麽多年來這些有沒有改變？現在人們是不是更經常回來投資做一些社區服務，或在唐人街投資？ FOO：我想在中國長大的人一定要出去，對不對？不可能大家都擠在這裏。尤其是做一些局限在當地的活動。這樣很多人都能夠幫上忙。 但我希望更多的成功的華人能夠回來幫助社區。比如，我們爲醫院籌款，因爲我們百分之六十五的病人是華人。讓那些成功的華人來到唐人街，捐款支援社區建設是很困難的。他們更願意把錢捐給哥倫比亞，給哈佛大學，因爲這樣做更令人敬佩。他們也許沒有想到要幫助一家本地的社區醫院。但我希望他們能改變主意，更多地幫助我們，這樣他們能夠幫到這裏更多的人。 問：醫院能不能向州或聯邦政府申請，還是說一切都要靠慈善機構？ FOO：是的，當然，你知道只有聯邦才能幫助我們。不知你知不知道，在最近幾年，我們甚至有香港---香港明星來這裏幫助這個華人社區健康基金會籌款。我們每兩年舉行一次演唱會，我們得到很多社區的幫助。確實有很多人在幫助我們，但我們需要更多人幫助。 問：你是否覺得你們醫院這樣的醫療機構在社區裏的地位沒有受到足夠的重視？ FOO：不是的，我想人們已意識到它的重要性。問題是人們是不是會說，‘好的，我要提供更多的幫助---因爲你不能把別人給你的錢花在---9/11事件的發生，醫院是---我們的資金比較少。我給你舉一個例子。比如說，如果他們的預算是一百萬美元。如果你的HMO占百分之十，這樣你就失去一千萬美元。其他仍是一樣。如果你病人人數減少，那你的成本就增加了。我們僅是談這些小錢。因此，我們必須要做更多的努力使預支平衡。但是，你知道，我們確實需要人來幫助做這些事情。我們需要人來做---，設備，以及其他事情，這樣我們才能更好地爲社區服務。我不是說我們現在沒有，只不過我們需要更多。 問：那麽說，經濟的下滑使大家都受到了影響。 FOO：是的。 問：你希望唐人街的將來會是什么樣子？你覺得唐人街在未來會怎樣？ FOO：中國人民非常勤勞。他們工作十分努力。他們很少抱怨。我希望唐人街會繁榮起來。我覺得除非經濟好轉起來，否則會很艱難。我們依賴衣廠，餐館，遊客到這裏來。在9/11之後我們有很多問題。因此，我們現在很難做事情。新移民來了之後，他們也許會關注這個地區，因爲語言上的問題。因此，我們需要更多人來做這些，爲他們提供幫助。還有，我剛才提到過的亞裔健康中心，它的建立會讓我們爲社區做更多的事情。這會使他們幫助我們找到一些問題，滿足他們醫療健康的需要。我想做的另外一件事情就是讓更多的人對中國文化感興趣。我認爲這十分重要。如果你向別人介紹，使別人對你的文化感興趣，瞭解你的文化，這是交流的一種方式。這就是爲什麽我投入一些精力來“學習中文”。倒不是說中文比其他語言高級，只不過是因爲中國文化持續了五千年。我們可以做很多事情來幫助其他人更好地瞭解中國文化。因此，語言會是一個問題。但你可以使這個過程變得更加容易一些，還有電腦，以及一些新的軟體，這會使其他人更加瞭解我們。而這對美國也有好處，因爲我們是一個多文化社會，大家在一起生活，我們彼此瞭解，這樣我們才能把這個國家建設得更好。 問：謝謝你。 FOO：不客氣。 問：在結束之前，你還有什麽要補充的嗎？ FOO：我想在博物館工作。[笑聲] 我在想---付出更多給博物館就是給中國文化做更多的貢獻。我想到的一件事情就是中國人的姓。我父親很有意思，給我二十多部在不同時代出版的Foo家家譜。從那裏我可以追溯我的祖先---直系祖先---一直到第一個，甚至比這還要早。因此，我想，追溯祖先十分重要。你怎樣才能知道這些。我們有家族詩。你知道大多數中國人 的名字有三個字，對不對？我們沒最後的名，我們只有姓。姓是第一個字。最後一個實際上是你的名字。中間是這一代人的名字。你從家族詩中起這一代人的名字。因此，如果我們有相同的姓，我告訴你我中間的名，你會知道我是家裏的第幾代。現在可能已經沒有這些了，但我想人們瞭解這些會有好處，會知道中國文化是怎樣來的。所以，我會跟博物館講這些的。 問：因此，這裏有更多的文化歷史---正如你所講，唐人街不僅僅是一個旅遊景點。 FOO：是的。很有必要讓人們瞭解中國的文化，結構是怎樣的。這還只是名字。實際上還有很多經典的東西，看我的網站就知道了。我還在搞那些材料。 問：好的。非常感謝你。 FOO：好的。很高興接受你的採訪。有任何需要請儘管跟我講。 [採訪結束] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dr. Sun Hoo Foo 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. unknown Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. transcription Media Type The media type of this item. interview Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown Description An account of the resource New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time. Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident. To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day. Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero. Chinatown Interview Chinatown Interview: Interviewee Jeanne Jackson Chinatown Interview: Interviewer Teri Chan Chinatown Interview: Date 2004-07-12 Chinatown Interview: Language English Chinatown Interview: Occupation employment agency Chinatown Interview: Interview (en) Q: My name is Teri Chan and I am here to interview Jeanne Jackson, and the location is 126 East Broadway, Chinatown, New York. Can you state your full name? Jackson: Yes. It’s Jeanne Lee Jackson. Q: I’m going to ask you a very unusual question. Why is your last name Jackson? Jackson: Because my husband, he is from Shanghai, when he came to America and he became a citizen, he was so happy to be an American citizen, so instead of Jackson Lee, he just switched it to Lee Jackson. They asked him if he wanted to change his name, because back in the sixties, they used to interview for, you know for citizenship one by one, one person at a time. It wasn’t in like a big group like they do now. Q: Did he ever request or petition to switch his last name? Jackson: No, he makes a joke, he says, “My great-grandfather was Andrew Jackson.” [laughs] But when I was first married, you know, people in a department store, they were wondering was my husband English, or would be black. There’s no Chinese person named Jackson. [laughs] And my kids, you know, they get teased, Jackson five, or Jackson six. Q: Do any of your children want to switch their last name? JACKSON: No. Q: They’re happy with it. JACKSON: Yeah, right. Q: How did you guys met? JACKSON: We met through the newspaper [laughs] Q: Tell--- JACKSON: I used to belong to the Ging Hawk Club, which was a club for the Asian ladies, and we were at Central Park, going ice-skating, and then we picked up the local newspaper from Chinatown, and it said “Free Chinese Lessons.” And since I’m an American-born Chinese, I always wanted to take Chinese lessons. So we said we’d enquire, and that’s how we met. He was giving lessons. Q: What was--- JACKSON: ---And I was his student. Q: When was this? JACKSON: Back in 1960. Q: Okay, let me backtrack a little bit. When were you born, where were you born? JACKSON: I was born in February, 1940, in New York City, Manhattan. Q: Where did you grow up? JACKSON: And I grew up in Green Point, Brooklyn. My mother had a hand laundry, and went to the elementary school, PS 34, Junior High School 126, and then on to Long Island City High School. Q: What was it like growing up in Fort Greene? JACKSON: Green Point. Q: Green Point, I’m sorry. JACKSON: Okay, well, at that time it was sort of the end of World War II, and I was the only Asian child in that elementary school and so I faced a lot of discrimination. Also I was kind of naughty. The teacher used to put me under her desk. But the kids used to say, “Chinky-Chinky Chinaman,” and made all kinds of funny names at me. And I always tried to fight back, because I was very proud to be Chinese-American. And I guess because of the war, World War II, that had an effect on people’s thinking of Asian people. Q: How did you fight back? JACKSON: Well, in Junior High School, they used to want to fight with me after school, and because I was always very, very, brave. I always challenged them. I said, Okay, we’ll fight, and we would fight after school in some place, you know, groups of kids would come and watch us fight. Q: Was it boys, or girls, or---- JACKSON: Boys and girls. Q: Different ethnic groups? JACKSON: Mostly Polish. Polish and Irish. Q: And did that continue to happen, after high school? JACKSON: When in high school, no. In high school it wasn’t so bad because high school was in the Long Island City high school. And it was, you know, the discrimination was a little better, because I graduated back in 1957. I only went three years, ’54 to ’57 in high school. I had a lot of fun in high school, too. I stayed with mostly some of Asians---there was very few Asian people, too, about three or four. And we used to go bowling, play basketball. Q: Did you integrate with any kids from Chinatown? JACKSON: No, no, because we lived in Green Point, Brooklyn, and you had to take the G subway, it was about maybe 45 minutes. Q: Did you help out with your parents in the laundry? JACKSON: Yes. I had to, in the morning, my parents had this laundry where you had to starch the clothes and fill the laundry bags, and I had to set up the starching area, and then my mother used to hand roll the collars, and I used to put the dirty clothes into bags for the wet wash company to pick up. The best part of the laundry business was giving the customers their packages and collecting the money. And then I said to myself, “Oh, I hope I never marry a laundry man. The work is so hard.” Q: How old were you when you started helping your parents? JACKSON: I think I was about ten, eleven. Q: And how long did that last? JACKSON: Oh, for a couple of years. Q: And where did your parents come from? Were they born here? JACKSON: No. My mother was born in Massachusetts, but my father came from Guangzhou, China. Q: Let’s talk about your father’s family first. JACKSON: Yes. Q: When did he come to the United States? Is his family here now, or---- JACKSON: My father came, I believe, when he was in his early 20s. He was a paper son, he had to buy paper to come. And then, he worked. He always says he had to pay three thousand dollars. He owed three thousand dollars to come to America and he had to pay back the money. And then later on, he went back to China because, I think, he wanted to get married. And he was so lucky that someone introduced my mother to him. My mother went back to China when she was very young, because her mother died, my grandmother, and her father shipped all the three (young) kids back to China. And so they met. My mother was only fifteen when she married my father. Q: And when did they come back to the United States? JACKSON: Yes, back in 1936. At that time, China was already at war with Japan, and my mother luckily she was an American citizen, so she was able to come back to America. Whereas a lot of other men, they couldn’t bring their wives over. Q: When she came back, what was the ratio between men and women? JACKSON: There were more men than women. And in fact my mother says it took her three years to learn how to go to Chinatown. We used to live on 42nd Street and 3rd Avenue, and it took her three years to learn how to go to Chinatown, and my father was afraid that the men would snatch her away, because there was such a shortage of Asian women Q: Your parents speak Chinese or English? JACKSON: My parents spoke Chinese. But let’s see, when I was born, my mother contracted tuberculosis, and she had to be sent to a sanatorium, and I was sent to an orphanage. At the sanatorium Upstate, that’s where she learned English. It was very hard for my father because he had to go visit my mother, and he had to go see me at the orphanage. Q: How long did you stay in the orphanage, and how old were you? JACKSON: I was just, I was very young. I think I was only maybe a couple of months old. And I stayed in the orphanage until my godmother---she used to take in foster children, and the she became my godmother. She lived in Brooklyn. Q: Was she Chinese? JACKSON: She was Chinese, yes. And she took in a lot of foster children, whose parents were sick, or away. Q: You remember that experience of living with her? JACKSON: I was really, very young, but I always loved my godmother. They were always so nice to me. Nicer than my own parents. [laughs] My godfather had a restaurant on Nassau Street in Manhattan, and I remember he had a Model T Ford, and I would go with him to buy vegetables on Essex Street. Q: And eventually your mother recovered? JACKSON: Yes, eventually my mother, yes, and then I came back to live with my parents. Q: Do you have brothers and sisters? JACKSON: Yes, I have one brother, and I have two younger sisters. My brother is a physician, he is a psychiatrist, and I have two younger sisters, one is teaching, and one is working in a supermarket in California. Q: Do you have any kids? JACKSON: Yes, I have four. I have one daughter and three sons. And I have fourteen grandchildren, right now. Q: Do you talk to your children about your experience growing up, the family history? JACKSON: Well, yes, because when we were growing up we were really very poor. Because my parents had to support three families, they had to support my dad’s family in China, my mother had to support her dad, and then take care of us. So we never had toys or things. I mean, we were lucky we had food on the table. Even though you grow up poor, you can be poor but you can still be human. And our parents, they worked so hard for us, we really love our parents so much. They sacrificed so much for us four kids. Q: Let’s go back where you graduate from college. What did you do, before you got married? JACKSON: I used to work for Chase Manhattan Bank. I worked there for six years, I became a section supervisor after I graduated from their school, and then I met husband. We only met, within three months, we got married. [laughs] We used to date at Junior’s in downtown Brooklyn, and then my husband was a printer at that time. He had his own little printing business, and then we opened up a take-out (restaurant) and I didn’t know a thing about Chinese restaurants. So I had to learn everything, how to make wontons, how to make spare ribs. We opened a little restaurant (take out place) in Brooklyn, and since we only had four hundred dollars, at that time, back in ’61, we were so lucky, we did everything ourselves. We built a walk-in refrigerator, we put down the floors, painted the store. And the cooks, they loaned us some money, they said, “Well, you could pay us later.” And so, we had a little take-out place. And my daughter was born then, and we used to have a playpen in front of the store. Kids used to come and play with her, because we used to sell chow mien in the cup for twenty-five cents, spare ribs and fried rice, fifty cents, for lunch, and this was at junior high school, Hudde Junior High School, on Nostrand Avenue and Avenue J. Q: How long did you have the restaurant business for? JACKSON: We had the take-out business for about three years, and then we opened up a restaurant on Avenue P. And by that time, my second child was coming, and so we had to really stop doing the restaurant business because it’s hard to get help in babysitting. And then we went into real estate in Manhattan. Q: Tell me about the real estate business. JACKSON: Well, we bought our first building on East Second Street, it was a twenty-four family. And there was never a super. I had to learn how to be a super, a janitor, and used to take a bucket of water up five flights of stairs (to wash and sweep the hallway). Besides watching my children, I did that and managed the building. And then take care of a number two boiler in the basement. So all these, you learn first hand by doing. A good experience. Q: Where were you living at that time? JACKSON: Well, from Brooklyn we moved to East Second Street in Manhattan. Q: Was your lifestyle back then, typical of Chinese family, or untypical? JACKSON: Ah, typical of a Chinese family? Well, because I’m born here, I guess I’m more modern. My children went to Headstart. I was involved and volunteered (at Headstart & elementary school), I was a translator for the parents who were newly immigrants, and so I did a lot of volunteer work and plus take care of my own children. And I didn’t have any help, because my parents still worked. Q: Were you able to communicate with the people, did you feel culturally connected to those people, the new immigrants? JACKSON: I guess they always thought that because I’m born here, they always say, “You know, you’re chuhsane, you’re American-born” It’s a little different. I respect whatever they want to do, and I think they respect me. It’s a little different. Q: What are the differences, and what are the similarities between you and--- JACKSON: ---and the ones from China? Well, first of all it’s the language. The language is a big problem, and then in the rearing of children. They’re very protective of the children. Whereas my children, I used to let them go to the Fresh Air Camp, they couldn’t believe my children were so young, six or seven years old, and I let them go to camp for two weeks. Because I wanted my children to be independent, and to learn other people’s culture, and also to have fun, because you’re living in the city, we never had money to go on vacation, because we were always working. Q: And do you guys have different ways of disciplining your children? JACKSON: Well, I’m the good guy, and my husband was the bad guy. So thank God. That’s why I think every child needs a mother and father, because it’s very hard for one parent---I think it’s very hard. If it wasn’t for their father, I don’t know how I would manage. Q: I want to backtrack a little bit. As a woman, I’m very curious about your experience working with Chase. Were you one of the few Asian people working, or the few Asian women working, and what was that like? JACKSON: Yes. At Chase Manhattan, this was at the headquarters, the main office, stock transfer department. There were only three Asians in this big office building. I supervised five part-timers, and I enjoyed it very much, supervising, but when I first started as a typist, it was so boring. And I learned how to smoke. But I used to do a lot of overtime, because my parents were very old-fashioned, and I didn’t have time to date, and it was either work, or school, work, and school, and so I feel, you know, you have to pay your dues, if you want to get ahead. Q: Was there any stereotype about you as an Asian woman? Do you think there was any stereotype about you? JACKSON: No, not really. I think they respected me. My godfather always said, “You know, since you’re Asians, and so few, you always have to do better, and show that you are conscientious, really conscientious, and do a good job and then people will see it. Have to because we want other Asians to be able to come in and get jobs.” Q: Let’s go forward a little bit and talk about your real estate business. Do you still have the real estate business, and how much--- JACKSON: Yes, when my children were young, I went to school and I became a salesman first and then a real estate broker, and I also studied insurance. And my office has been here since 1973. And I also built my office. It was no walls, no floor, it was really a dump. This area was very dilapidated, but gradually, since ’73, business is pretty good, at least the south Florida property, in Lehigh. And we do management and leasing (of residential and commercial properties). Q: Who are your clients? JACKSON: Who--- Q: Who are your clients, what are their backgrounds? JACKSON: Since my office is located--- it varies, I have black people, Jewish people, some Chinese. That’s why I like where my office is, because it’s a variety. I meet a lot of people, they come to me for the notary public signing, insurance. It’s very transit, my area. Q: Are the same clients still coming back, or do you have more Chinese clients now because Chinatown has expanded? JACKSON: Well, since it’s so transit, we used to have a lot of old clients, but now since there’s a lot of competition, and more people opened up their own business in Chinatown, and so like now, because East Broadway is little Fukzhao City, because the people speak that dialect, and I don’t speak their dialect so I’m a little handicapped with that. But there’s a lot of competition in real estate and in insurance. But at least still I’ve been able to maintain our business, we’ve been here so long, since 1973. Q: How do you keep up with all the competition? Do you have new ways of doing business? JACKSON: Well, we try to give the best service, and since I do income tax also. So if they have a question, I always try to help them and I don’t charge them extra, things like that. So our service is different. Because really our business is (service oriented) for everybody and everybody does their business differently. But, in order to survice, anybody can go into business, but to stay in business, that’s the whole key. A lot of people want to open a business, and then the next day, or the next two years, they’re gone. But we have survived, so we had to be doing something right. Q: You mention they speak a different dialect, Fukanese, and you obviously don’t--- JACKSON: I speak Toisanese. But my husband’s lucky, he speaks three dialects. He speaks Shanghainese, Mandarin, Cantonese, and some English. Q: So how do you overcome the language barrier to serve the new clients? JACKSON: My secretary speaks Mandarin, and my husband hires the Fukanese help from the employment agency. Q: Tell me a little bit about your husband’s employment agency. JACKSON: The employment agency, he has a lot of different sections. He has about thirty girls working for him. And he does mainly the restaurant, anything in the restaurant line, and he sends people all over, from Puerto Rico, all the ways up to Buffalo, and then Massachusetts, and to Chicago because he has the oldest employment agency now in Chinatown. And now a lot of the new ones have open, his competitions, years ago there were only three, now there’s about fifty, a lot of people here, they worked for him and then they opened up their own employment agency. And now, the jobs are sort of scarce, because of 9/11 and economy. Q: Tell me the impact of 9/11 on your business and your husband’s business. JACKSON: Well, we didn’t have phone service for about a month and a half, and that was difficult, because we had to put signs up, and we used the cell phone. Verizon gave us cell phones, so we ordered about thirty cell phones. And business was very quiet, and Chinatown was like a ghost town the first few days. There was nobody around, and we still smelled the smoke, because we’re only about twelve blocks away. It really had a bad impact on Chinatown, a lot of people lost their jobs, and business closed up. Q: You got any help from any of the 9/11 relief programs? JACKSON: No, we didn’t. Well, we tried to, we were going to apply, but then we saw the paperwork was this high, and they really asked an awful lot of questions, so we didn’t apply, because there was too much red tape. Q: Did you help any of your clients apply, since you do income tax and insurance? JACKSON: My clients---they went to apply themselves, and when they came to do the income tax, they didn’t realize that the grants that they got they had to pay tax on it. So I had one client that got a grant for her business in Chinatown, and for her house in Brooklyn, and then when it came to tax time, she didn’t realize she had to pay about $18,000 was taxable. Q: So there was bad side effects? JACKSON: Right. I think if a lot of people knew they were. I met the other people and they said that they don’t want to, want the government to come and check your home, to see if you really bought that air conditioner, or that air cleaner. They just didn’t want to be bothered. Q: So, in short it wasn’t effective for you or your clients. JACKSON: The grants? Q: Yes. JACKSON: Well, I guess some people really needed the grants, and a lot of people were unemployed, so I guess it helped a little. We got the grants, we signed a two-year lease, got some grants, $6,000 grants----I live in Confucius Plaza, and part of it was taxable. So that’s a help. Everything’s a help. Q: How did you hear about the grants after 9/11? JACKSON: To tell you the truth, I didn’t know about it. I was at a meeting, and somebody---I was at a party, or a meeting, and somebody mentioned these grants that you could sign up the Chinese-American bank. Because I don’t read the Chinese newspapers, so I’m handicapped that way, I didn’t even know about it, so then I went to inquire, and that’s how I got that LMCD grant. Q: So you didn’t read that grant on mainstream newspaper, English newspaper? JACKSON: Well, yeah, I read the English newspaper, but they didn’t have much information on those grants. And then you hear something, maybe funny business going on, so I didn’t pay much attention. Q: Where were you on the day of 9/11? JACKSON: I was in Confucius Plaza community room working. That was the primary day. I remember very vividly, it was primary day, and in that room, there’s no TV, no radio. Working since 5:30 in the morning, that’s when we started, and it was about, I think. about 10:30 where people start coming in and saying there’s no more, no more World Trade Center. And they were very upset and screaming, so we went out to take a look and we saw the smoke coming, the black smoke. And then we were just, everybody was so shocked, was in a state of shock, and then they said we can close up at 11:30. And then, Confucius Plaza wanted to evacuate the whole two buildings. Q: Why? JACKSON: Because there were rumors that they were going to bomb Confucius Plaza next. We didn’t know, but that was the rumor. So they evacuated everybody, the super had to knock on everybody’s door and tell you to go out, and everyone was standing around in the grounds. Q: Where is Confucius Plaza? JACKSON: Confucius Plaza is located on the Bowery between Division and the Manhattan Bridge. Q: Where did you evacuate to? JACKSON: Well, I was so tired from all the commotion, and getting up at 5:30 in the morning, that I stayed in my apartment, and took a nap. [laughs] Q: Where was your family at this time? JACKSON: Oh, my parents, we couldn’t find my parents. My sisters and brothers from California were calling me, “Where’s mom and dad?” And I was trying to contact them. And I was so worried, because we didn’t know where they were. I was calling them, and trying to call them and contact them. The next morning, I was calling the police and trying to file a missing person report. And at twelve o’clock, my parents came in. They were at the casino in Connecticut. And the casino would not let them leave, and they were stuck there and couldn’t make any phone calls and there was no phone service. It was terrible, no phone service, so nobody, and nobody knew where they were. And finally, when I’d been talking to the police station, trying to file a report, and then they just came in (to my apt). Q: You mentioned, after 9/11, that Chinatown was very quiet. Can you describe that a little bit more? JACKSON: There were a lot of barriers put up, a lot of stores were closed, we couldn’t get the, buy those things to cover your nose--- Q: The masks. JACKSON: The masks, right. Supplies were sort of all gone, even buying milk and things like that. Things were really restricted. Trucks couldn’t come in because there were barriers put up all over the place. But we tried to continue our life as much as possible. Kids went to school. And I had to work from my home, because I have a land-line phone, so that’s the only phone that really worked well. And then we had to go downtown to apply for these phones. There was all kinds of information we had to bring them to apply for it. So that was a little unnerving. Q: Was that a difficult process? JACKSON: Yes, because there were a lot of people applying for the phones. Q: Did they offer, did they have Chinese translators? JACKSON: No, they didn’t. Q: So only the people who can speak English were able to apply? JACKSON: Yes. Q: Do you know at that time, were there any agencies in Chinatown helping them with it? JACKSON: Yes, I understand that later on, there was the CCBA involved, and I think the Chinatown Planning Council helped out. And then on Worth Street, that’s when they had some Chinese people. I know that some students’ alliance club, some students from the Manhattan Community College, they volunteered for the language (translation) and to help the people fill out forms, or guide them where to go. And the Lioness---we gave out blankets and supplies from our location in mid-town to help the workers. Q: How long did the quietness last? When did you notice that Chinatown was busy again, or that Chinatown has recovered? JACKSON: Oh, I feel, quite a while, at least, maybe a year later. People didn’t travel, people were afraid to travel. At the time, the fares were very cheap. But we did, we went to Hawaii to visit. Q: You were not afraid? JACKSON: No. We couldn’t believe it, usually it’s like eight hundred dollars. At that time, it was only five hundred to go to Hawaii. Q: What was the impact on the business? I mean, you mentioned there was impact, but how drastic--- JACKSON: The business was very quiet. There was hardly any business. Q: How did you contact the clients when you didn’t have the phone? Did the clients just come by or---? JACKSON: Well, we had signs in front of the door with the phone number if they wanted to contact us. Because, you know, you couldn’t operate your business without the phone lines. And then the properties that I manage, we put signs, we physically go there and put signs up, and help where ever possible. Q: Okay, let’s shift gears, and talk about you. JACKSON: Oh, me? [laughs] Q: How are you involved in the community? JACKSON: Well, I was the PTA president when my children were young, from elementary school all the ways up to junior high school. That’s one. And then, I was a Lioness, started the Chinese-American Lioness Club. I didn’t know a thing about Lion, Lionism, and that’s a service organization. We do projects like, to help the senior citizen, or we give scholarships to the school. We have to do our own fundraising, by that, we have a flea market, we issue a journal, and we have meetings twice a month. So I’m involved in that. And then I became a board member for the Chinatown Health Clinic, and that takes a lot of time, and you don’t get no pay. You just get a nice dinner when you go to the board meetings. And I’m involved in the fund raising. And then also I’m a member of the ITC, International Training Communication. It’s an organization, an educational organization that teaches you how to speak (& how to organize and do leadership things). Q: Why did you get involved with all these organizations? JACKSON: I feel because I live and work in Chinatown, and I like to give back to my community. I think it’s very important. I also ask my children to do that. Two of my children are attorneys, and they volunteer their services at the church, no fee. They like to do things that don’t make any money. (laughs) Q: Tell me a little bit more about the Lioness Club. Have they been around in Chinatown for a long time? JACKSON: Well, ours was the first one started in 1980. No, but there is the men’s, the Chinatown Lions Club is about sixty years old. It’s mostly men. They didn’t have women doing service. We were like a project of theirs. And then, when we started our club, there was the Governor Lions Club, there was the City Hall Lions Club---Lioness Club, which was all women. They spoke Chinese all the women spoke Chinese, but our club was really international. We have people from Denmark, mostly professional teachers, or business people. We have black people, we have Japanese, we have Jewish people. So ours is really sort of international. That’s why now we’re called the New York Cosmopolitan Lions. And we became Lioness in 1987, and this is our twenty-fourth year. We have purchased medical equipment for the Chinatown Health Clinic. We bought a lot of eye equipment. And we go visit the senior citizens and we gave out donations, red envelopes, for Chinese New Year. We do things in the community, buy equipments (for daycare center and gave scholarships to the high school students). Q: Tell me about your children. JACKSON: Well, my second child was born in Kings Highway, Brooklyn. We had to sell the (restaurant) business because it was really hard to manage, and we have two young kids. Q: I’m sorry. Backtrack. Which business? JACKSON: Our restaurant business. Our restaurant was on Avenue P and Ocean Parkway. So we sold that, as I was getting ready to give birth to my second child. And then we were almost evicted. The marshal was coming in the middle of the night, so luckily we had a place to move to in Manhattan. And that’s how my husband purchased a building in Manhattan. Q: Why were you being evicted? JACKSON: Because when we sold the business we didn’t work, and when you have a family, and when you don’t have income coming in, it’s very easy, the money just goes very fast. So luckily my husband put a small down payment on the apartment building in Manhattan, and we moved to Manhattan. Q: Oh, you were evicted from your apartment ---- JACKSON: In Brooklyn, yes. Q: Not from the restaurant, because you already sold it? JACKSON: No, because we already sold it, right. Q: And it was on the way, moving from Brooklyn to Manhattan, that your son was born? JACKSON: Yes. Q: Why did you guys pick settle in Chinatown? JACKSON: Oh, then after we were living in the East Village, and then the building department says, “You can’t live in sort of a basement apartment”, so that’s why we had to sell that property, and we moved to Chinatown. Because my husband used to have an employment agency in downtown Manhattan, and that building was going out of business, and all the employment agencies had to move, so that’s why we came here, to East Broadway and opened up the employment agency. Q: Can I ask you how much you bought the building for, and when was this? JACKSON: The building in Chinatown? Oh, back then in the seventies, back in the early seventies, this building only cost---believe me, it was a wreck, though---it only cost thirty five thousand dollars. Q: How much is it worth now? JACKSON: I think it’s worth about, at least a million. I told you, that’s the time, you know when you have a lot of children, and my husband always likes to buy these handyman specials. We really worked very hard at it because we didn’t have a lot of money to purchase buildings. I mean, we could never afford one today. The prices they’re asking like two million, one million. With thirty-five thousand dollars, we put down five thousand, and you get a mortgage for thirty thousand, which the landlord would give you, so you didn’t have to go to the bank. So it was much different back in those days. And that’s why we were able to buy this building, and pay it off (after fifteen years). Q: Of all the buildings that you manage, do you own them, or you are helping other people to manage? JACKSON: No. In the beginning, I manage a lot for a lot of people. I manage for a lady who was a rabbi, a rabbi’s wife. Manage for some other business people in Chinatown. Q: Where was the rabbi’s---- JACKSON: Her building was on Avenue C and East Sixth Street. And then I managed buildings on Mott Street. I managed buildings on Jefferson Street. I managed a coal building, we had to put coal into the boiler. Those were interesting times. But you know, we really worked very hard. My mother always said, “hard work never killed anybody”, And it’s true. [laughs] Q: Is your business spread over Manhattan now, or they concentrated in one area? JACKSON: Most of our business? Well, I manage some properties in the Bronx, in Manhattan, East Village, some in Chinatown. Q: Since you grew up in Brooklyn, but you raised your children in Chinatown, what was the difference, or similarity? JACKSON: Being and living in Chinatown, I always wanted my children to know other people’s culture. Inside PS 2, there was Spanish children, black, Jewish children, and other American children. I always taught them to stay with the nice kids, and try to understand other people’s culture so that they would be more versatile, and they would not feel the discrimination that I had felt when I was young, right? I really know what it feels like to be discriminated against. And so my children, they were able to make friends with other nationalities. And we invited the people to our home, and had dinner. They didn’t speak Chinese, even though I had a Chinese teacher for them. They had no interest in learning Chinese, they would fall asleep. And my daughter, we sent her to the Chinese school for kindergarten, she went for one year, and then she lost interest. So they always spoke English. But now, a lot of Chinese (in Chinatown) don’t speak English. So it’s really difficult. It’s really different. Q: Do you feel easy living in Chinatown, or outside Chinatown? JACKSON: Now? Or then? Q: Then, or now. JACKSON: Well, I really had to get used to Chinatown myself too because I never lived in Chinatown before. My kids, they had to memorize certain dishes that they liked. They had to memorize the dishes in order to order the food. We had one incident where my son was shot in the head with a bb-gun, when he was only fourteen years old. He was coming back to the office to close up, and my husband and I were taking courses at Murry Bergtraum High School. I didn’t know he was shot in the head until I came home and I saw his face was like off to one side, and then I knew something was wrong, so I rushed him over to Bellevue. And he was sick for almost a year. We had wanted to give a reward (to find out) who shot this bb-gun. The police, they never found out who did it. And so some people said, “Maybe you should leave Chinatown, because of this incident”. And I said, “Well, why should I leave Chinatown? We live and work here. No matter where you go, you might---we never expected this to happen”. But luckily, he pulled through, and the bullet was taken out of his brain. It was almost inside the brain. It was really thin skin. All the churches for praying for him, and luckily faith was keeping us going, and so he survived, thank God. Q: So do you feel Chinatown was safe or unsafe back then? JACKSON: Well, back then there was a lot of gangs. My daughter experienced. They didn’t like the way she walked, and some gang member was trying to beat her up on East Broadway. Luckily she was passing her church on East Broadway, and somebody was looking out the window and came down to help them. And I was so upset. I was so upset that these gangs can attack young children, that I called the police. And then another incident, they mistook my sons (for gang members). My sons were going to buy ice cream, and the gang members pushed him into a hallway, and wanted to beat them up in the hallway, but luckily my son is smart, he called to his brother, and his brother came to help him. And then they realized it was the wrong person they had. So my children were never involved in gangs because we always tried to teach them---they have to know what’s right and what’s wrong, the most important thing. I wanted them to be good citizens. They didn’t have to be brilliant, but they had to be human and be good citizens. That’s all I asked. And to be a good student. And that’s their job. I used to explain to them, “That’s your job, being a good student. And mommy and daddy is supporting and paying the bills.” We had those three incidents when they were young, and I was very upset, but I still wouldn’t leave Chinatown. Q: When was that? JACKSON: It was back in the seventies. And the gangs came, and even then they tried to come to (to the store). You know, I don’t believe in giving the gangs anything, not a penny. I never paid anybody a penny. Because I figured, “Gangs, if they were doing something good for the community instead of just trying to get money. I wouldn’t mind contributing for the community.” I used to tell my neighbors, “You don’t have to give these gangs anything.” When I was the PTA president, one of the students’ parents had a restaurant on Division Street. And he said the gangs would come into the restaurant and order---a bunch of them, a whole table---order food, get up and don’t pay for it. And so we mentioned that to the principal, and the principal called the undercover people. Next time they came, next day they came again, and sat around and ordered a lot of food. They got up and was leaving, and the other table was all police officers, and they all got arrested. So it was a proof that you don’t have to pay these gangs. Because those parents, they really worked very hard. Why should we pay these gang members? Q: Did they bother you or your business? JACKSON: One time, they tried to---I was in court--and they tried to throw all the customers out, saying, “Do you want your life, do you want your life? You’d better leave.” And then they tried to knock the TV down. But meanwhile, we had all these cameras. So when I came back, the help (staff) was frighten you know, of course I wanted them to be protected. The gang members told them not to come back to work tomorrow, that they’re going to do something to the place. So I said to my help---as I came back later, in the afternoon--- and I said “What, are they making a movie or something?” I mean, I said, “I can’t believe this is happening. Are they making a joke?” And so my husband and I went to the police and the next day all the undercover people, some were outside in the car, and some in my back room. When they (gangs) came in again, I told them “I’m not giving you anything. What do you want to do about it?” This was said in Chinese. They started to get up. And meanwhile, I had a bullet-proof vest on, just in case. Those bullet-proof vests are so hot. And the police wanted me to give them marked money, but I didn’t. Because I never give any of these bad guys anything, because I don’t believe it---I feel it’s a principle. And so I didn’t give them anything, and the police were a little annoyed at me because I didn’t give them the marked money. But when they started to go out, they sort of threatened, and the police heard it. They had the videotape from the day before because we gave them the videotape, we had to go down to the police headquarters. Then the police arrested them because they found out that they had killed somebody in Massachusetts. And this one guy was arrested. Then later on, he wanted to apologize. He had another person, like an intermediate, to apologize to us. So it made the newspapers and people were wondering, “are you okay?” And that was the end, that was the end of that. Then sometimes a few years later, some people, they come in, a young lady and a young girl, and they’re bringing a plant. So I thought it was from a friend. So I said, “Who’s this from?” And they said, “This is from the street.” And once they said “from the street,” I said, “No, I can’t accept it.” And I did speak to them in English, so the girl says, “Oh, let’s get out of here.” Q: So they were intimidated---- JACKSON: They wanted---- Q: ---by the fact that you speak English. JACKSON: Yes, and then my other neighbors, they said, “Oh, because you speak English, that’s why they don’t bother you so much, because they only speak Chinese.” So I said, “But this is America, you don’t have to be intimidated by them. You have to stand up for your rights.” Q: Then why do you think other people, give in to protection monies and all this stuff? JACKSON: Because they’re afraid. They don’t, they’re afraid. Q: Because of the language? Or the culture? JACKSON: The language and the culture. They don’t want trouble so they give them money. I never give anybody a penny. I’m terrible. Because it’s the principle of it. I mean, if somebody, if my friend was sick and something, I would of course lend them, give them money for food or something. But I don’t believe in supporting these gangsters. So back in the ‘70s there was really a lot of gangsters around, but now I think it’s less, or I think it’s much less. At least, they don’t come around to my place. I don’t know about the others, because as I said, I’m handicapped---I don’t read Chinese newspapers. Maybe that way it’s good in a way, because I would be crazy. (laughs) Q: Tell me how different Chinatown is now, compared to the ‘70s. JACKSON: The ‘70s? Okay, the ‘70s were less people. Now, ever since the immigration law was passed in ’65, more Chinese have come to America, more immigrants. So now there are a lot of new immigrants, and they’re mostly from Fukzhao. And the Cantonese people sort of moved to New Jersey, Queens. That’s why there are three Chinatowns now. There used to only be one, which was Manhattan. But the one in Queens is mostly people from Taiwan. And now in Manhattan Chinatown, it’s hard to find a good Cantonese restaurant these days, because we’re so used to our Cantonese cooking. There’s a lot of Fukzhao type of food. Their food tastes a little different. And they speak their own dialect, and if you don’t understand it, it’s a little difficult. They speak also broken Mandarin. Q: Do you feel disconnected from them? JACKSON: Sometimes. Because I don’t understand what they’re saying. Q: Is there any way to improve the communication between them? Between them and you? JACKSON: Well, if they speak English or they speak a little Cantonese. I try to understand. But my secretary understands Mandarin, so she speaks to them in Mandarin, and then the other girls who work outside speak Fukanese, so I have to ask them to translate. Q: I want to ask you, do you see any way Chinatown should be improved? Do you think Chinatown is sufficient in handing all these new immigrants from Fujian area? JACKSON: In terms of service and space, well, not really, because I don’t think we have enough of housing for the new immigrants. And lot of them, they’re overcrowded, their apartments are overcrowded and illegal. Some of them, they like to break the law. There’s one instance where they rent an apartment and they’re using it for prostitution. Which is very bad. And I didn’t know until the police called me and said they were watching the building. Q: Was this one of the buildings you managed? JACKSON: Man---yes. Q: And where is this located? JACKSON: Over here on Rutgers Street. I mean, I couldn’t believe it, I checked their reference and everything but they’re still doing sort of illegal business. And so, I had to call an attorney, I had to deal with the D.A.’s office, and finally they left. But then they go to another place, and starts this prostitution business (again), which is not very good. They have their own laws, like they don’t want to listen to what the rules are here. You tell them it’s overcrowded and it’s illegal, but they still rent the apartments. I understand there’s some apartments where they pay for eight hours day time and eight hours night time. Q: You say housing--- JACKSON: ---And the housing, of course the sanitation, they block the streets with their wares, and you can hardly walk. Chinatown should be clean and it should be just as clean as uptown, but it’s not, and that’s because we don’t have any political clout. And that’s what we need more, the young people to come out to vote, because if we don’t vote, we don’t get the services that we really desperately need. Q: Besides the political clout, what else can Chinatown do to help improve the quality of living? JACKSON: The quality of living? Besides the sanitation, the schools. I understand from some educators, that because the parents work or they work out of town--- the new immigrants --- that the grandparents take care of the kids, and that the kids don’t listen to the grandparents. I understand they’re kind of wild in the elementary school. So I always believe that all kids should get a good education, and sometimes because the parents are not involved, they just go sort of haywire. When I was PTA president, I used to always said to the parents, I said, “If you want your child to do well in school, you’ll have to be involved, and check his work, or if you have a problem, you go right to the teacher, or the principal.” Q: Why do the parents go out of town? Is there not enough jobs in Chinatown? JACKSON: I guess there’s not enough jobs. They go all over, they work in Chicago, or out of state, and they just leave the kids with the grandparents. Q: What kind of job do they do outside of the city? JACKSON: I think mostly it’s the restaurant, or sewing factories. Service business. Q: Do you think Chinatown can have more industry, create more industry, or more jobs? JACKSON: We lost a lot of the sewing factories. We used to have about five hundred, and now I think it’s only a handful. There are a lot of factories have gone, and so that makes the economy in Chinatown bad Because the women used to work in sewing factory, and then they would go to the restaurants for lunch, or for tea, and so that’s lost. That’s why a lot of people are unemployed. Q: Since your husband’s in the employment business, do you guys see any new business growing in Chinatown that will replace the garment or the restaurant? JACKSON: I don’t think so. No. Q: Do you have any more to say about this interview? About yourself, or Chinatown, or anything? JACKSON: [Laughs] Well, I want to thank you for interviewing me. I hope my story or my information is helpful to other people. Q: Thank you very much. JACKSON: Thank you. [END OF INTERVIEW] Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh) 問：我是Teri Chan，我在這裏採訪Jeanne Jackson，地點是東百老彙126號，唐人街，紐約。你能講一下你的全名嗎？ 傑克遜：好的。我叫Jeanne Lee Jackson。 問：我想問你一個不尋常的問題。你爲什么姓傑克遜？ 傑克遜：因爲我丈夫，他是上海人。他來美國的時候成爲了一名美國公民，他因此非常高興，所以他把Jackson Lee調換了一下就變成了Lee Jackson。他們問他想不想改名，因爲在六十年代入籍問話是一個一個問的，而不是像現在一組一組問。 問：他有沒有申請過改名？ 傑克遜：沒有，他經常開玩笑地講，“我的曾祖父是Andrew Jackson。”[笑] 但在我們剛剛結婚的時候，商店裏的人以爲我丈夫是美國人，或者是黑人。中國人沒有姓傑克遜的。[笑] 別人也拿我的孩子開玩笑，說他們是Jackson Five，或Jackson Six。 問：你的孩子有沒有想要改名？ 傑克遜：沒有。 問：他們喜歡這個名字。 傑克遜：是的。 問：你和你丈夫是怎樣認識的？ 傑克遜：我們是通過報紙認識的。[笑] 問：講--- 傑克遜：我曾經參加過Ging Hawk俱樂部，這是一個亞洲婦女俱樂部。有一次我們在中央公園滑冰，拾到一份唐人街的地方報紙，上面說有“免費中文課。”因爲我是在美國出生的華人，我總是想學中文。於是，我們就跟那裏聯繫，我和他就是這樣認識的。他在那裏教課。 問：什麽--- 傑克遜：---我是他的學生。 問：這是什麽時候的事情？ 傑克遜：1960年。 問：好的，讓我們再談一下在此之前的事。你是什麽時候在哪里出生的？ 傑克遜：我於1940年2月在紐約曼哈頓出生。 問：你是在哪里長大的？ 傑克遜：我在布魯克林區Green Point長大。我母親開了一家洗衣店，我在PS 34上的小學，在126中上的初中，後來在Long Island City上的高中。 問：在Fort Greene長大的情形如何？ 傑克遜：Green Point。 問：是Green Point，對不起。 傑克遜：那時差不多是二戰末期，我是那所小學裏唯一的亞裔學生，受到了很多歧視。而且，我有點兒淘氣。老師經常護著我。但其他學生總是辱駡我，並給我取各種各樣的外號。我總是想反抗，因爲我很自豪自己是美籍華人。我想因爲戰爭，二戰，人們對亞洲人的看法有些改變。 問：你是怎樣反抗的？ 傑克遜：在上初中的時候，他們總是想放學後和我打架。因爲我非常非常勇敢，我總是向他們挑戰。我說，好吧，我們打架，我們放學後要在某個地方打，一群孩子會過來看。 問：是男孩還是女孩，或者--- 傑克遜：男孩女孩都有。 問：不同種族的？ 傑克遜：多半是波蘭人。波蘭人和愛爾蘭人。 問：在上高中之後是不是還經常有這樣的事情？ 傑克遜：上高中之後就沒有了。上了高中就好了一些，因爲我去的是Long Island City高中。我在那裏不太受歧視，因爲我是1957年畢業的。我只上了三年，54年到57年在高中。我在高中的時候很開心。我大多時候與一些亞裔學生在一起---那裏亞裔學生也不多，有三、四個。我們經常打保齡球，籃球。 問：你和唐人街的小孩有沒有來往？ 傑克遜：沒有，因爲我們住在Green Point，在布魯克林區，你要坐G車，大約需要45分鐘。 問：你有沒有去你父母的洗衣店幫他們？ 傑克遜：有，我不得不幫。每天早上，我父母要給髒衣服上漿並把衣服裝到袋子裏。我要整理上漿的地方，然後我母親要用手搓領子，我要把髒衣服放到袋子裏等濕洗公司過來取。做洗衣服這一行最開心的時候是把洗好的衣服交給顧客並收錢。然後我對自己講，“我希望我不會嫁給一個做洗衣店生意的。這份工作太辛苦了。” 問：你開始幫你父母的時候有多大？ 傑克遜：我想我大概是十歲或十一歲。 問：你一共幫了多長時間？ 傑克遜：幾年。 問：你父母是從哪里來的？他們是在這裏出生的嗎？ 傑克遜：不是的。我母親出生在麻塞諸塞州，但我父親是從中國廣州來的。 問：我們先談一下你父親那一邊。 傑克遜：好的。 問：他是什麽時候來美國的？現在他家裏人是不是都在這裏，還是--- 傑克遜：我想我父親是二十多歲的時候來這裏的。他是個紙兒子，他要花錢買文件到這邊來。來了之後，他就開始打工。他總是說他花了三千美元。他借了三千美元來美國，來了之後就要還帳。後來，他又回到中國，我想他是想回去討老婆。他很幸運，因爲有人把我母親介紹給了他。我母親很小的時候就回到中國去了，因爲她母親死了，我祖母和她的父親把三個孩子全送回到中國。他們就是這樣認識的。我母親跟我父親結婚時只有十五歲。 問：他們是什麽時候又回到美國的？ 傑克遜：1936年。當時，中國已經在跟日本打仗。很幸運，我母親是美國公民，她能再回到美國。而其他很多人都不能把他們的妻子帶過來。 問：她回來的時候，這裏男人和女人的比例是多少？ 傑克遜：男的比女的多。實際上，我母親說她花了三年的時間才知道怎麽去唐人街。我們以前住在42街三大道，而她用了三年的時間才知道怎麽去唐人街，而我父親卻擔心別人把她搶走，因爲當時亞裔女孩子非常少。 問：你父母講中文還是英文？ 傑克遜：我父母講中文。但在我出生的時候，我母親得了肺結核，被送到療養院，而我被送到孤兒院。在上州療養院那裏，她學了英文。我父親很辛苦，因爲他要去看我母親，又要去孤兒院看我。 問：你在孤兒院待了多長時間，你當時有多大？ 傑克遜：我很小。我想我也許只有幾個月大。我在孤兒院一直待到我教母---她經常領養一些小孩，就這樣成了我的教母。她住在布魯克林。 問：她是中國人嗎？ 傑克遜：是的，是中國人。她收養了很多小孩，他們的父母要不是生病，要不就是抛棄了他們。 問：你還記不記得和她住一起的事情？ 傑克遜：我當時的確很小，但我總是非常愛我的教母。她對我們一直都非常好，比我的親生父母都好。[笑] 我教父在曼哈頓的Nassau街開了一家餐館，我記得他有一部福特T型汽車，我和他一起去Essex街買菜。 問：最後你母親康復了？ 傑克遜：是的，然後我又和我父母住在一起了。 問：你有兄弟姐妹嗎？ 傑克遜：我有一個哥哥，兩個妹妹。我哥哥是醫生，精神科醫生，我的兩個妹妹一個教書，另外一個在加利福尼亞的一家超級商場工作。 問：你有孩子嗎？ 傑克遜：有，四個，一個女兒，三個兒子。我現在有十四個孫子女。 問：你有沒有跟你的孩子講過你的經歷，家裏的事情？ 傑克遜：有，因爲我們小時候家裏非常窮。因爲我父母要養活三個家庭，他們要資助我父親在中國的家人，我母親要資助她父親，還要照顧我們。因此，我們沒有玩具或其他東西。能有飯吃我們已經覺得很幸運了。即使你小的時候家裏窮，你仍然能夠過活。我們父母爲了我們而拼命工作，我們的確非常愛他們。他們爲了我們四個孩子做了很多犧牲。 問：讓我們講一下你大學畢業後的事情。在結婚之前你做什麽？ 傑克遜：我在曼哈頓大通銀行工作。我在那裏做了六年，從他們的學校那裏畢業之後，我就做了業務主管，然後遇到了我丈夫。我們認識三個月之後就結婚了。[笑] 我們經常在布魯克林市區Junior’s約會，那時我丈夫做印刷。他有自己的印刷生意，後來我們開了一家外賣店（餐館）。 我對中餐館一竅不通。因此，我不得不學每一件事，怎樣做雲吞，怎樣做排骨。我們在布魯克林開了一家小餐館（外賣店）。因爲我們那時只有四百美元，在61年，我們很幸運，自己做了所有的事。我們做了一個大冰櫃，還有鋪地板，刷漿。那些廚師給了我們一些錢，說，“你以後再還給我們。” 我們就這樣開了自己的小外賣店。我女兒是那時出生的，我們店前有一個嬰兒圍欄。有一些小孩經常過來和她一起玩。我們經常賣炒麵，一杯二十五分，午餐排骨和炒飯，五十分，在一家初中學校附近，Hudde Junior High School，在Nostrand大道和J大道交口處。 問：你那家餐館開了多久？ 傑克遜：我們做了大約三年的外賣，然後又在P大道開了一家餐館。我當時要生第二個孩子，所以不得不停止做餐館生意，因爲很難找到人照看孩子。於是，我們又開始做曼哈頓房地産生意。 問：請講一下房地産生意。 傑克遜：我們在東二街買了第一棟樓，一個二十四家庭的公寓樓。我們從來沒有雇過管理員。我必須要自己學怎樣做管理員，看門人。我經常要提一桶水爬五層樓梯，清洗走廊。除了照顧我的孩子以外，我就做這些，料理那棟樓。我還要負責地下室的備用鍋爐。所有這些都是我一邊做一邊學的。的確是很好的經驗。 問：你那個時候住在哪里？ 傑克遜：我們從布魯克林搬到曼哈頓東二街。 問：你們那時的生活方式是典型中國家庭的生活方式，還是說很不傳統？ 傑克遜：典型中國家庭？因爲我是在這裏出生的，我想我更現代一些。我的孩子去了Headstart。我志願參加Headstart和小學的服務，我給那些新移民的家長做翻譯。除了照看自己的孩子以外，我做了很多義務工作。也沒有別人幫我，因爲我父母還在工作。 問：你能夠與那些新移民交流嗎？你是否感到和那些人在文化上有牽連？ 傑克遜：我想他們總認爲因爲我是在這裏出生的---，他們總是說，“你是chuhsane，你是在美國出生的。”這有一點不同。我尊重他們想要做的事情，我想他們也尊重我。這有一點不太一樣。 問：區別是什么，你和他們之間有什麽共同之處--- 傑克遜：那些從中國來的？首先是語言。語言是個大問題，然後是對孩子的教育。他們非常護著孩子。而我經常讓我的孩子去Fresh Air Camp，他們很難理解我讓六、七歲的孩子去外面宿營兩個星期。因爲我想讓我的孩子獨立，並且學習其他文化，玩的開心。因爲我們住在城市裏，我們從來沒有錢度假，因爲我們總是在工作。 問：你們是否用不同的方式來教育孩子？ 傑克遜：我演好人，而我丈夫演壞人。感謝上帝。我想這是爲什麽每個孩子都需要一個母親和一個父親，因爲一個人很難---我認爲是很難。如果沒有他們的父親，我真不知道該怎麽辦。 問：我想再倒退一點。作爲一個女人，我對你在大通銀行工作的經驗很感興趣。是不是在那裏工作的亞裔人很少，或者亞裔婦女很少，那裏的情況怎麽樣？ 傑克遜：是的。曼哈頓是大通銀行的總部，主要的辦公樓，儲備部門。這麽大的辦公樓裏只有三個亞洲人。我負責五個打散工的，我很喜歡我的工作，監督。但我剛開始的時候做打字員，非常無聊。後來，我學會了抽煙。但我經常加班，因爲我父母很古板，我一直沒有時間談戀愛，不是工作就是上學，工作，學校。我想，你如果想要有所成就，你必須要有所付出。 問：別人是不是認爲你是典型的亞洲婦女？你覺得你很典型嗎？ 傑克遜：不是的。我想他們尊重我。我的教父總是說，“既然你是亞洲人，而且亞洲人又這麽少，你總是要做得更好，讓人家知道你很負責任，非常盡責，做好自己的工作，這樣別人會看到的。你必須這樣做，因爲我們希望其他亞洲人來了之後也能找到工作。” 問：再讓我們談一下你的房地産生意。你是不是還有些地産，多少--- 傑克遜：是的，在我孩子還小的時候，我有上學，我首先做了一名銷售人員，然後是房地産經紀人，我也有學保險。我的辦公室從1973年以來都在這裏。辦公室也是我自己蓋的。這裏沒有牆，沒有地板， 完全是個垃圾堆。這個區域被廢棄了，但是逐漸地，從73年開始，生意變得非常好，至少是南佛羅里達的地産，在Lehigh。我們做管理和出租（住宅和商業）。 問：你都有哪些顧客？ 傑克遜：誰--- 問：你的顧客有哪些，他們的背景怎樣？ 傑克遜：因爲我的辦公室在---，什麽人都有，有黑人，猶太人，一些中國人。這就是爲什麽我喜歡那個地方，因爲很多元化。我遇到很多人，他們到那裏做公證，保險。那個區域有很多流動人口。 問：是不是有一些老顧客，還是說你現在有更多的中國客戶，因爲唐人街已經擴張了？ 傑克遜：因爲有很多流動人口，我們有很多老顧客。但是因爲現在有很多競爭，越來越多的人在唐人街開自己的生意。比如現在，因爲東百老彙是一個小福州，因爲人們都講那個地方的方言，而我不講他們的方言，這是我的劣勢。房地産和保險業有很多競爭。但至少我們還能維持自己的生意，我們在這裏已經有很長時間了，從1973年開始。 問：你是怎樣應付這些競爭的？你有新的經營方式嗎？ 傑克遜：我們儘量提供最好的服務，我也有做報稅。如果他們有問題，我都會盡力幫助他們的，我們不多收他們的錢，就這些方面。我們的服務跟其他人有所不同。 因爲我們是做服務業的，每個人做生意的方式都不同。但是，如果只是爲了生存，任何人都能做這一行，但關鍵是要一直做下去。很多人都在做生意，然後轉天，或者第二年他們就不見了。但我們還在，因此我們做得應該還算不錯。 問：你提到他們講另外一種方言，福州話，而你顯然不會講--- 傑克遜：我講臺山話。但我丈夫很幸運，他講三種方言。他講上海話，國語，廣州話，還有一些英文。 問：那你們是怎樣克服語言障礙爲新客戶提供服務的？ 傑克遜：我的秘書講國語，而我丈夫的職業介紹所裏有人講福州話。 問：跟我講一下你丈夫的職業介紹所。 傑克遜：職業介紹所裏有很多不同的部門。他雇了大約三十個女孩子。他主要做餐館，任何和餐館有關的，他把人介紹到全國各地，從波多黎各，到水牛城，麻塞諸塞，芝加哥。他現在是唐人街最老的職業介紹所之一。現在這裏又開了很多新的介紹所，很多年以前，和他競爭的只有三家，現在大約有五十家。很多人在他這裏幹，然後又離開開了他們自己的職業介紹所。 現在，工作不好找，因爲9/11和經濟不景氣。 問：能不能跟我講一下9/11對你和你丈夫的生意有什麽影響嗎？ 傑克遜：在那之後一個半月裏我們這裏都沒有電話，這很麻煩，因爲我們必須要把招牌打出去，這樣我們只好用手機。 Verizon給了我們手機，我們買了大約三十部手機。但生意很少，在開始幾天裏，唐人街像是一座鬼城。周圍都沒有人，我們還能聞到煙味，因爲我們離那裏僅有大約十二個路口。這確實對唐人街有嚴重的影響，很多人失去了工作，很多地方都關閉了。 問：你們有沒有得到9/11救濟計劃的援助？ 傑克遜：沒有。我們想申請，我們正準備申請，但看到需要做很多文件，他們的確問了很多問題。因此我們就沒有申請，因爲要辦很多繁雜的手續。 問：你們有沒有幫助你們的客戶申請，既然你們有做報稅和保險？ 傑克遜：我的客戶---他們想自己申請，當他們來做報稅的時候，他們沒有意識到他們得到的救濟金還要交稅。我有一個客戶因爲在唐人街的生意和在布魯克林的房子得到了救濟金，但在報稅的時候，她才知道她要交一萬八千塊稅。 問：有一些負面影響？ 傑克遜：是的。我想很多人都知道這些。我遇到其他一些人，他們說他們不想讓政府去他們家裏看有沒有買空調，或空氣清潔器。他們就是不想受別人打擾。 問：簡單地講，這對你和你的客戶不是非常有效。 傑克遜：救濟金？ 問：是的。 傑克遜：我想一些人確實需要這些救濟金，很多人失業了，因此我想應該會有一些幫助。我們得到一些救濟金，簽了兩年的租約，六千塊救濟金---我住在孔子大廈，其中一部分是要交稅的。因此，這有些幫助。任何事都會有幫助的。 問：你是怎樣知道9/11救濟金的？ 傑克遜：說實話，我不知道。有一次開會，有人---我在開一個會，有人提起這些救濟金，說你可以在中美銀行登記。因爲我不看中文報紙，從那個渠道瞭解不到，我甚至根本不知道，後來我去問別人，我就是這樣得到LMCD救濟金的。 問：你沒有在英文主流報紙上看到救濟金的消息嗎？ 傑克遜：我有看英文報紙，但是上面沒有太多關於那些救濟金的資訊。然後我聽到其他一些有意思的事情，所以我沒有太注意。 問：9/11那天你在哪里？ 傑克遜：我在孔子大廈社區室工作。那是很重要的一天。我記得非常清楚，那個房間裏沒有電視，沒有無線廣播。我從早晨5:30開始都在那裏工作，等到我想大概是10:30的時候，有人進來說世貿中心沒有了。他們很沮喪，有的人在尖叫，於是我們就出去看，看到那裏在冒煙，黑煙。大家都很震驚，然後他們說我們可以11:30關門。那時，孔子大廈要疏散兩棟樓裏的人。 問：爲什么？ 傑克遜：因爲有傳聞說他們接下來要轟炸孔子大廈。我們不知道，但那是傳聞。所以，大家都被疏散了，管理員挨家敲門，讓裏面的人出去，所有的人都在下面站著。 問：孔子大廈在什么地方？ 傑克遜：孔子大廈在Bowery街，位於Division街和曼哈頓橋之間。 問：你們被疏散到哪里？ 傑克遜：因爲這些騷動，我已經很疲勞了，我是早晨5:30起的床，所以我呆在我的公寓裏睡覺。[笑] 問：那個時候你家在哪里？ 傑克遜：啊，我父母，我們找不到我父母。我在加利福尼亞的哥哥和妹妹打電話給我，“爸爸媽媽在哪里？”我想和他們聯繫。我很擔心，因爲我們不知道他們在哪里。我給他們打電話，想聯繫他們。第二天早晨，我打電話給警察，想報告有人失蹤。在十二點的時候，我父母回來了。他們去了康涅狄格的娛樂場。娛樂場的人不讓他們走，他們被困在那裏，不能打電話，因爲沒有電話服務。當時很可怕，電話不通，沒人知道他們在哪里。最後，當我在警察局報告有人失蹤的時候，他們剛好回了家。 問：你提到在9/11之後唐人街很安靜。你能再講得具體一些嗎？ 傑克遜：這裏有很多路障，很多商店都關了門，我們買不到蓋在你鼻子上的那個--- 問：面具。 傑克遜：是的，面具。這些儲備都沒有了，甚至牛奶之類的東西。購物受到限制。卡車開不進來，因爲到處都有路障。但我們還是盡力繼續正常的生活。孩子們去上學。我不得不在家裏工作，因爲我有一部地線電話，是唯一一部正常運作的電話。然後我們必須要去下城申請這些電話。在申請文件上，我們必須提供很多資訊。這搞得我很疲憊。 問：申請很麻煩嗎？ 傑克遜：是的，因爲有很多人申請電話。 問：他們那裏有中文翻譯嗎？ 傑克遜：沒有，那裏沒有。 問：那只有能講英文的人才能申請？ 傑克遜：是的。 問：那時候你是否知道唐人街有什麽機構可以幫助他們申請？ 傑克遜：我後來才知道，CCBA有介入， 我想唐人街計劃理事會（Chinatown Planning Council）也幫了忙。還有在Worth街上有一些中國人。我知道那是一些學生聯盟組織，曼哈頓社區學院的一些學生，他們義務做翻譯幫助人們填表格，或跟他們講怎麽走。還有母獅---，我們在中城那裏發放毛毯和一些補給。 問：這樣的寂靜持續了多久？你是什麽時候注意到唐人街又繁忙起來的，或是說唐人街又恢復正常了？ 傑克遜：我想是隔了一段時間，至少，也許一年之後。人們不旅行，人們怕旅行。那時的車票很便宜。但我們有出去玩，我們去了夏威夷。 問：你不害怕嗎？ 傑克遜：不是不害怕。我們是不相信，通常票價是八百美元。那個時候，去夏威夷只需要五百塊。 問：對商業有什麽影響？我是說，你提到有影響，但有多麽嚴重--- 傑克遜：沒有什麽生意。幾乎沒有什麽生意。 問：那時你沒有電話是怎樣跟客戶聯繫的？只是那些客戶過來還是---？ 傑克遜：如果他們想要跟我們聯繫，我們門前招牌上有電話號碼。因爲，你知道，沒有電話你做不了生意。我們也在我管理的樓房那裏擺放了招牌，我們是親自到那裏立起招牌的，盡可能地幫助別人。 問：讓我們換個話題，請談一下你自己。 傑克遜：我？[笑] 問：你的社區活動多不多？ 傑克遜：在我孩子還小的時候，從他們上小學一直到初中，我都是PTA主席。這是其一。還有，我是一個母獅成員，創建了美籍華人母獅俱樂部。我當時不瞭解獅子，那是一個服務機構。我們舉辦像幫助老年人之類的活動，或者在學校設立獎學金。我們必須要自己籌款，爲此，我們辦了一個跳蚤市場，出了一本期刊，每個月開兩次會。這些我都有參與。 後來，我成爲唐人街健康診所委員會的成員，這佔用了我很多時間，沒有薪水的。只是你去開董事會會議時能夠吃上一頓好飯。我也參與了籌款。而且，我還是ITC的成員，國際交流培訓（International Traning Communication）。這是一個教育組織，教你怎樣講話，以及怎樣組織和領導。 問：你爲什么參與這些組織？ 傑克遜：我覺得因爲我在唐人街生活工作，我想爲社區做些回報。我想這十分重要。而且我也要求我的孩子這樣做。我有兩個孩子是律師，他們義務去教堂服務，不收費。他們喜歡做一些沒有報酬的事情。[笑] 問：再跟我講一下那個母獅俱樂部。他們在唐人街有很長時間嗎？ 傑克遜：我們是第一家，從1980年開始。不對，還有一個男性組織，唐人街獅子俱樂部成立有六十多年了。大多數都是男人，他們不招女的。我們跟他們的組織類似。我們剛剛創立俱樂部的時候，有州長獅子俱樂部，有一個市政府獅子俱樂部---母獅俱樂部成員全部是婦女。他們講中文，所有的婦女會員都講中文，但我們的俱樂部是國際性的。我們有從丹麥來的會員，多半是職業教師，或商業界人士。我們有黑人，有日本人，有猶太人。所以，我們的確是國際性的。這就是爲什麽別人稱我們是紐約國際獅子。我們于1987年成爲母獅協會，今年我們已經是第二十四年了。 我們爲唐人街健康診所購置了醫療設備。我們買了很多眼科的設備。我們慰問老年人，發放捐款，過春節的時候派利是。我們爲社區做了很多事情，爲託兒所購買設備，發獎學金給高中學生。 問：請談一下你的孩子。 傑克遜：我第二個孩子出生在布魯克林區Kings Highway。我們不得不賣掉餐館生意，因爲很難料理，我們當時有兩個小孩。 問：很抱歉。請稍等一下。是什麽生意？ 傑克遜：我們的餐館生意。我們的餐館在P大道和Ocean Parkway上。我們把它賣掉了，因爲我要生第二個孩子。我們幾乎是被轟出來的。執法人員半夜來了，幸好我們在曼哈頓有地方住。就這樣，我丈夫才在曼哈頓買了一棟樓。 問：他們爲什么要轟你走？ 傑克遜：因爲我們賣餐館的時候沒有工作，當你有了家庭又沒有收入的時候，錢花得很快。幸好，我丈夫付了一小筆定金，在曼哈頓買下了一棟公寓樓，然後我們就搬到了曼哈頓。 問：別人把你從公寓裏轟走了--- 傑克遜：是的，在布魯克林。 問：不是餐館，因爲餐館已經賣掉了？ 傑克遜：不是，餐館已經賣掉了，是的。 問：你兒子是在路上，從布魯克林到曼哈頓搬家的路上，出生的？ 傑克遜：是的。 問：你們爲什么選擇住在唐人街？ 傑克遜：我們在East Village住了一段時間之後，建築部門說，“你們不能在地下室住”，就是這樣我們不得不賣掉那個地産，然後就搬到唐人街。因爲我丈夫以前在曼哈頓下城開了一家職業介紹所，那棟樓的樓主很快就要倒閉了，所有的職業介紹所不得不搬走，這樣我們就搬到東百老彙這裏，開了這家職業介紹所。 問：我能問一下你花了多少錢買下那棟樓的？那是什麽時候？ 傑克遜：唐人街的那棟樓？那是七十年代，七十年代初，這棟樓只賣---相信我，那時這裏一團糟---只花了三萬五千美元。 問：現在值多少錢？ 傑克遜：我想至少值一百萬。這是在那個時期，我家裏有很多孩子，我丈夫總是喜歡買那些便宜貨。我們的確工作非常努力，因爲我們沒有多少錢買房子。我是說，我們今天都買不起。他們現在出價兩百萬，一百萬。當時是三萬五千美元，我們下了五千塊定金，抵押貸款貸了三萬，這錢房東會借給你，因此你不必去找銀行。因此，那個時候和現在很不一樣。就是這樣我們才能買下這棟樓，十五年之後才還清。 問：你管理的那些樓是你自己的地産，還是幫別人管理？ 傑克遜：沒有。起初，我幫很多人管理了很多地方。我幫一個牧師的太太管理，還有幫唐人街的一些生意人。 問：那個牧師的--- 傑克遜：她的樓在C大道和東六街交口處。我還有管理Mott街上的樓。我有管理過Jefferson街上的樓。我還管理過一棟煤樓，我們要把煤放到鍋爐裏。那是個有趣的年代。但你知道，我們確實工作得很辛苦。我母親總是說，“辛勤工作不會死人的。”的確如此。[笑] 問：你現在的生意是不是分佈在曼哈頓各地，還是說集中在某一個區域？ 傑克遜：我們大多數的生意？我管理的物業有的在布朗士區，有的在曼哈頓，East Village，一些在唐人街。 問：你在布魯克林長大，但你是在唐人街把你的孩子帶大的，這兩個地方有什麽不同和相同之處？ 傑克遜：搬到唐人街之後，我一直想讓我的孩子瞭解別人的文化。PS 2有西班牙人的孩子，黑人和猶太人的孩子，還有其他美國人的孩子。我總是讓他們和好孩子呆在一起，想讓他們瞭解別人的文化，使自己更加多元化，這樣他們不會受到我小時候受到的歧視。我非常瞭解被歧視的感受。我的孩子能夠和其他國家的人交朋友。我們有時請別人到我家來吃飯。我的孩子不會講中文，儘管我有給他們請中文教師。他們沒有興趣學，學的時候總是打瞌睡。我們把女兒送到中文幼稚園，她去了一年，然後就不感興趣了。所以，他們一直是講英文。但現在，唐人街很多中國人都不講英文。所以，現在不講中文的確很不方便。現在的確不一樣了。 問：你覺得在唐人街生活舒服，還是在外面生活舒服？ 傑克遜：現在？還是那個時候？ 問：當時，或者現在。 傑克遜：我自己必須要習慣唐人街，因爲我以前沒有在唐人街住過。我的孩子必須要記住他們喜歡的菜。他們必須要記住菜名好點菜。有一次，我兒子頭上中了一槍BB-Gun，當時他只有十四歲。當時他回辦公室關門，而我和我丈夫在Murry Bergtraum高中上課。我不知道他頭上被打了，直到我回家看到他一半臉都腫了，我馬上就意識到不對勁兒，於是我急忙把他送到Bellevue。他病了差不多有一年。我們曾想要懸賞 找到是開槍的人。警察從未找到是誰幹的。於是，一些人說，“因爲這件事，也許你們應該離開唐人街。”我說，“爲什么我要離開唐人街？我們在這裏生活和工作。無論你去到哪里，你總會---我們從未想過這樣的事會發生。”但很幸運，他恢復了健康，子彈也從他的腦袋裏取出來了。差不多打到腦子裏。的確是很薄的一層皮。全教會的人都在爲他祈禱，很幸運我們一直有信心，他終於渡過了難關，感謝上帝。 問：你認爲唐人街那時安不安全？ 傑克遜：那時有許多黑幫。我女兒經歷過。他們不喜歡她走路的方式，一些黑幫的人想在東百老彙打她。還好，她正好走在東百老彙她去的教堂的外面，裏面有人看到，下來幫她。我很不高興。我不高興是因爲這些黑幫的人居然欺負小孩子，我於是叫了警察。還有一次，他們誤以爲我兒子是黑幫成員。我兒子出去買冰激淩，那些黑幫的人把他推到一個過道裏想要打他，還好我兒子很聰明，他叫自己的兄弟，他兄弟就過去幫他。然後他們才知道他們認錯人了。所以，我的孩子從來沒有參與黑幫，因爲我們總是叫他們---他們必須要知道什么是對，什么是錯，這是最重要的事情。我想讓他們成爲好公民。他們不必非常出色，但他們必須要有人性，是好公民。我就這麽一個要求。同時要做個好學生。那是他們的職責。我經常跟他們解釋，“做一名好學生是你的職責。爸爸媽媽會支援你們，出錢供你們讀書的。”在他們很小的時候，我們出了這三件事，我很生氣，但我仍不想離開唐人街。 問：那是什麽時候的事情？ 傑克遜：那是七十年代的事。那些黑幫的人過來，甚至那個時候，他們都想來店裏。我從來不想給黑幫什麽東西， 一分錢也不想給。我從來沒有給過一分錢。因爲我想，“如果那些黑幫想爲社區做些有益的事，而不只是拿錢，我不介意爲社區做些貢獻。”我經常跟我的鄰居講，“你用不著給這些黑幫任何東西。”我在任PTA主席的時候，有個學生的家長在Division街開了一家餐館。他說那些黑幫進了他的餐館點了---他們有一大群，一桌人---菜，吃完就走了，沒有付錢。於是，我們就反映給校長，校長就叫了一些便衣。他們下一次去---，第二天他們又來了，坐在一起點了很多菜。他們吃完要走，坐在旁邊的都是警察，他們都被抓了起來。 這就證明你不必給這些黑幫任何東西。因爲那些家長確實很努力工作。爲什么我們要付錢給這些黑幫？ 問：他們有沒有打擾你或你的生意？ 傑克遜：有一次，他們想---我當時在法院---他們想把所有的客戶都轟走，說，“你們要不要命？要不要命？你們最好走開。”然後，他們想砸電視。但我們安了監視器。我回來的時候看到那些員工都嚇呆了，我當然希望他們能夠受到保護。那些黑幫的人不讓他們明天回來上班，他們想再回來搗亂。我對自己講---我下午回來了---我說，“他們在拍電影嗎？”我是說，我想，“我不相信這是真的。他們是不是在開玩笑？” 於是，我和我丈夫去到警察局。第二天，來了很多便衣，一些呆在外面的汽車裏，一些在辦公室。當黑幫進來的時候，我跟他們說，“我不會給你們任何東西。你要怎麽樣？”我是用中文講的。他們開始站了起來。同時，我穿了防彈衣，以防萬一。穿上防彈衣後我很熱。警察要我給他們做記號的錢，但我沒有給他們。因爲我從不給這些壞傢夥任何東西， 因爲我不相這些---這是原則問題。所以，我什麽也沒有給他們，警察也有些惱火，因爲我沒有把做標記的錢給他們。但當他們離開的時候，他們威脅了一下，警察也聽到了。他們有前一天的錄影，因爲我們把錄影帶給了他們，我們必須要去警察局總部。後來，警察逮捕了他們，因爲警察查明他們在麻塞諸塞殺了人。有一個被逮捕的人後來又想道歉。他讓另外一個人，差不多是個中間人，過來向我們道歉。那些報社和其他的人都在納悶，“你沒事吧？”就這樣，以後就再也沒有事了。 幾年之後，有一次，一位年輕的女士和一個小女孩走進來，送了一盆植物。我以爲是一個朋友送的。於是我問，“這是誰送的？”她們說，“是街上的人送的。”她們一說“是街上的人送的，”我說，“不，這個我不能收。”我是用英文跟她們講的，那個女孩子說，“我們走吧。” 問：他們怕了。 傑克遜：他們想--- 問：因爲你講英文--- 傑克遜：是的，後來我的鄰居說，“因爲你講英文，所以他們不太打攪你，因爲他們只講中文。”那我就說，“但這裏是美國，你不必被他們嚇著。你必須要爭取自己的權利。” 問：那你認爲爲什么其他人要屈服，給他們保護費？ 傑克遜：因爲他們害怕。他們害怕。 問：因爲語言，還是文化？ 傑克遜：語言和文化都有。他們不想惹麻煩，於是就給他們錢。我沒有給過他們一分錢。我很難對付，因爲這是原則問題。我是說，如果有人，如果我的朋友病了或發生其他的意外，我當然會借給他們，給他們錢或者食物。但是，我不會資助這些黑幫。在70年代，這裏的確有很多黑幫，但我想現在很少了，至少我是這樣感覺的。至少他們不再到我的地方來了。別人我不知道，因爲正如我所講，我有劣勢---我不會看中文報紙。也許這是好事，否則我會發瘋的。[笑] 問：請跟我講一下現在的唐人街同70年代相比有什麽不同。 傑克遜：70年代？70年代的時候這裏人很少。自從65年頒佈了那個移民法以來，有更多的中國人來到美國，有更多的移民。因此，現在有更多的新移民，他們大多來自福州。廣東人差不多都搬到新澤西和皇后區去了。所以現在有三個唐人街。以前只有曼哈頓一個。但皇后區主要是臺灣人。現在在曼哈頓唐人街，你很難找到好的廣州餐館，因爲我們吃粵菜已經習慣了。現在有很多福州菜。他們的菜有一些不同。而且，他們講自己的方言，如果你聽不懂，可能會是個問題。他們也講不太流利的國語。 問：你覺得和他們不太親近嗎？ 傑克遜：有時。因爲我聽不懂他們在講什麽。 問：有沒有什麽辦法增進你們之間的交流？在你和他們之間？ 傑克遜：如果他們講一點英文或廣州話， 我會努力聽。但我的秘書講國語，因此她跟他們講國語，其他在外面工作的女孩講福州話，所以我要讓他們給我做翻譯。 問：我想問你，你認爲唐人街在什麽地方還需要改進？你認爲唐人街是否有能力容納這些福州人？ 傑克遜：在服務和空間方面不行，因爲我認爲我們沒有足夠的住房供給新移民居住。很多住房都很擁擠，他們的房子太擠了，而且這樣住是不合法的。他們有一些做違法的事情。有些人租了一所公寓用來做妓院，這很不好。我一直都不知道，直到警察給我打電話，說他們在監視那棟樓。 問：這是你管理的樓嗎？ 傑克遜：是的。 問：是在什麽地方？ 傑克遜：在Rutgers街。我是說，我簡直不敢相信，我查了他們的材料，但他們還是做了一些違法的事情。因此，我只好請了一個律師，來應付檢控官，後來他們搬走了。他們搬到另外一個地方，並且重操舊業，這樣很不好。他們有自己的想法，他們不想遵守這裏的規定。你跟他們講這裏過分擁擠和不合法，但他們仍然租。我知道有些地方他們有的白天租八個小時，有的晚上租八個小時。 問：你是說住房--- 傑克遜：---住房，當然還有衛生，他們的東西都放在過道上，給行人帶來很多不便。唐人街應該是乾淨的，應該和上城一樣乾淨，但現在不是，這是因爲我們沒有任何政治勢力。而這就是我們還需要努力的，希望那些年輕人能夠站出來投票，因爲如果我們不投票，我們就得不到我們需要的服務。 問：除了政治影響之外，唐人街還能做些什么來提高人們的生活質量？ 傑克遜：生活質量？除了衛生教育以外，我從一些教育家那裏知道，因爲一些家長工作很忙，或者在外州工作---那些新移民---，由祖父母照看孩子，而這些孩子不聽祖父母的話。我聽說他們在小學學校裏很瘋。我總是認爲所有的孩子應該得到良好的教育，有時因爲父母沒有配合好，他們就經常搗亂。 我在任PTA主席的時候，我總是跟家長們講，我說，“如果你想讓你的孩子在學校學習好，你必須要管他們，檢查他的作業。如果你有問題，就要直接找教師，或者校長。” 問：爲什么父母要到外地去？在唐人街找不到工作嗎？ 傑克遜：我想是沒有太多的工作。他們到處走，有的在芝加哥工作，或在外州，他們就把孩子交給祖父母。 問：他們在外地做什么工作？ 傑克遜：我想多半是餐館，或是衣廠，服務業。 問：你認爲唐人街會有更多的産業嗎？創建更多的産業，或更多的工作？ 傑克遜：我們失去了很多衣廠。我們曾有五百多家，而現在我想只有零星幾個。很多衣廠都倒閉了，造成唐人街經濟不景氣，因爲在衣廠工作的女工會去餐館吃午餐，或喝茶，所以這些都是損失。正是因爲這個，很多人都失業了。 問：既然你丈夫搞職業介紹，你們是否認爲唐人街會有什麽新興産業來取代制衣或餐飲業？ 傑克遜：我不這么認爲。沒有。 問：你還有什麽要補充的嗎？關於你自己，或唐人街等的？ 傑克遜：[笑] 我想感謝你採訪我。我希望我的故事或資訊會對其他人有幫助。 問：非常感謝你。 傑克遜：謝謝。 [採訪完畢] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jeanne Jackson 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. unknown Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. transcription Media Type The media type of this item. interview Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown Description An account of the resource New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time. Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident. To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day. Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero. Chinatown Interview Chinatown Interview: Interviewee David Chan Chinatown Interview: Interviewer Teri Chan Chinatown Interview: Date 2004-07-12 Chinatown Interview: Language English Chinatown Interview: Occupation CPC Chinatown Interview: Interview (en) Q: July 13, 2004, I’m interviewing David Chen at CPC, Chinese-American Planning Council, at 150 Elizabeth Street, New York, New York, Chinatown. Mr. Chen, can you tell me, what do you do, and who do you work for? Chen: I’m the executive director of the Chinese-American Planning Council, a human service organization in Chinatown. Q: Which organization? Chen: Chinese-American Planning Council. Q: Can you give me a description of history about CPC? Chen: Well, CPC is a forty-year-old, community-based organization started back in 1965, trying to help immigrants, and focus on service to immigrant families. Over the years, we do everything from language class and entitlement services, translations, to day care center, job training for adults, senior citizen center, meals on wheels, home care programs, low-income housing, child welfare---you name it, we do it. Q: Why was it founded? Chen: It was started really back in 1965, if folks remember that we had those Great Society days, this was a response to the Great Society effort by Lyndon Johnson, that we see the importance of providing service from the grassroots up, who understand the issue, know the people, and be most effective to deliver service in the very culturally competent and relevant ways, and that’s how the grassroot movement started, really back in the ‘60’s. Q: When it was started in the ‘60s, how many clients did it serve? Chen: Well, the community was much smaller. I wasn’t around at that time. Chinese in New York was only barely eighty thousand, so in that sense Chinatown was much smaller. The kind of service, as I understand it, was mainly people coming for language, older people needing basic services and translation. So in that sense, once you have a storefront opened up, young people start to congregate, and then become a one-stop. People come to you for information, so they know where to move next. And over time, with funding increases, as the movement continues, there are more opportunities for money, for funding. That’s how we sort of evolved. At the beginning, it was a small number of people who dropped in every day, just need us for basic information and referrals. Q: You mentioned funding, how was it funded before? Chen: Well, I understand that the first funding was through a sit-down protest through a community development agency, a block grant that lower Manhattan-Chinatown-being in the low-income area in those days. It’s important that certain resources, government resources be distributed. Hence, in those days, Chinese were not into demanding for service. So it takes the pioneer of CPC at that time to realize that we pay taxes, we are entitled to certain service. So we certainly play an advocacy role in educating the community today. We’re no longer Chinese from Taiwan or Hong Kong, overseas, or foreigner. We exercise our rights. We have our needs. We go get it. So I think through organizing protests, we got our first grant. And then, along the way, the anchoring grant that really helped CPC was the CETA, Comprehensive Employment Training Act, that provided basic job training grant. For us, it was tremendously important, because it provided the first rent check for organization. You have people coming in. CETA in those days allowed people with stipends, because you encouraged people who otherwise were working very low-paying jobs, to retrain them into potential things so they can move themselves and lift themselves up. So they provided a stipend. Minimum stipend, lunch money, carfare, so they can have an alternative. Otherwise, with immigrants, if you don’t provide a little bit of incentive, why would they want to drop that low-paying job to come for you, who have nothing? So CETA, in the early days, was really very compatible to the needs of the community at that time. To try to encourage people who otherwise would not come out to seek opportunities. And CPC was a vehicle to help that happen. Q: Can you tell me what is CPC’s budget, and where does the current funding come from? Chen: Well, CPC’s budget is huge now. We started with only eighty-ninety dollars once upon a time, forty years ago. But we grew, over time, policy changed, the government’s involvement in providing social service changed, so hence, we seized those opportunities, and we evolved into a very huge organization, subsidiary and other groups. We are funded by all three levels of government. Most of the contracts that we receive money are from city level, but the city is (funded) by the federal government anyway. So of the money that appears to be from city but most likely a combination of resources. Q: And what other combinations? Can you give us a breakdown? Chen: Well, I would say if you really talk about total funding-wise, over ninety percent of our money is government funded. Of that, direct city could well be in the seventy-percent, state twenty-percent, but really it depends on which particular funding or activities. Really it depends on which source of funding: if directly funded by the federal, or indirectly funded by the city but from the federal. Q: Can you give me one program that is funded by an agency, and what does it do? Chen: Okay. Childcare, say for example. Childcare money is mainly through the city, with the state subsidies, eventually the money may come from the government, but yet it--- (interruption in tape Q: A CPC program that’s funded by a city agency? Chen: I would say the biggest contract from the city angle are the youth and childcare program, which is basically the tax-levy money as well as federal money or city money through block grants. But childcare and youth are the most local funding, so I would say policy-wise, very much effected by the local needs and resources. Q: And who, which, city agencies? Chen: City agency would be Agency for Children’s Services, the Division of Youth and Community Development. Q: And how much is the budget, and how many clients CPC in the childcare area? Chen: In the childcare area, we have after school and preschool, depends on age group. The total budget is probably in the ballpark of six and half million dollars. Youth program is a disparate source, most under-funded and most disconnected in terms of, I would say, fragmented in terms of sources. But I think that total agency probably has slightly under a million dollars in youth programs. Q: And what is the estimated number of clients that you served with this budget? Chen: Well, that you’ve got a catchy number. Is it duplicated count, or unduplicated count? That’s also with the youth problem because there are youth programs that we count as on-going case management type that you deal with individual and on-going youth development issues. There are also issues that you would deal with-“play ball”- come in for tutoring, they walk in, you count one. They walk in twice, you count two. So in that sense, the irony always is, we would like to see it as unduplicated count. How many total persons do you help over time? Rather than every time they walk in, go up, play chess, play basketball, you count twice? Right? That is the old-fashioned way of saying how active we are. But we really want to impact, and CPC wants to move in the direction where we’re impacting in serving the total person in numerous ways. We’d rather count one, rather than so count many times but yet you add up the number, it doesn’t really point to the whole total person. Q: Let me ask this question: many people confuse CPC as a government agency. Can you tell us the difference between the entity of CPC and how it’s different from a private organization or an agency? Chen: We are a private organization doing public service. We receive our funding, like I mentioned before, ninety-percent plus are from government sources. But we went through a bidding process. The RFP, or Request for Proposal, process. Through a competitive process, through the qualifications, that’s one of the requirements on the contract. We bid and won the contract competitively, which is public funds. But we, as a private organization, filed 501(c) 3. (interruption in tape) Chen: CPC is a private, not-for-profit, 501(c)3, tax-exempt organization. We are pretty much a private organization doing public service. And our funds, like ninety percent of our funds came from the government, through a request for proposal RFP process, which is a competitive process meeting the needs of the department that issued the funds, and demonstrating our ability to perform what we promised to do, in terms of our plan and method and proposals. Basically we receive funding that way. But our board, of course, is a non-profit, volunteer board, which are citizens who basically have a public interest in seeing that resources are put to good use. And basically we are an organization trying to maximize whatever funds can do in the best way on the community level. Q: Where do CPC clients come from? Chen: Our clients, actually, come from the people who need us. And they need us based on what our mission and purpose are. Our mission, basically, points to the fact that we want to help recent immigrant, Chinese families in particular, to gain access to services, access to the mainstream, to emphasize economic self-sufficiency, so they can participate in the mainstream America. And that’s the main effort that we want to focus on. Of course, we do it through job training, helping people find childcare, helping housing, helping immigrants to know where to go for services and get answers, referrals, including other needs as they may arise. Q: Why would they come to CPC and not elsewhere? Chen: Well, once upon a time we were the only one and the first one, so they all come to us, and over the years, we develop a trust, we develop reputation, in the ten blocks of Chinatown. We are the household word when they need service. But of course, in the meantime, Chinatown has changed. There are so many more organizations. So much expert service has developed over time. The increasing irony is through the conduit that people come to us, we try to refer them to the best service they can receive. Q: Would you say there is sufficient service in Chinatown right now? Chen: No, far from it. We can say that it’s a good organized effort in trying to get the service as close to people as possible, as a one stop that we see ourselves have. But we know that nobody can do it all. The challenges of new population, diversity of issues, and where they came from, backgrounds are so different, we can only do so much. Increasingly, it’s knowing their needs and referring them out. Do as much as we can, where we can do the best, but refer them to the best available resources that are out there. So we become a bridge for people to reach the Chinatown market, and for the community itself who obviously don’t have enough access to know enough about the outside, to reach what are the good opportunities out there. Q: What is missing right now? Chen: What’s missing is a lot of information deficit. New People come in, they just don’t know. They came back with baggage. They came from the old way, they do things from the old country. Not realizing the norm, the rules change. And America is a free country, but unless you know the way to get around, it ain’t yours! So that’s the part we see that immigrant lack. They have an American dream, they come here, but if you don’t tell them how to do it, and help them along the way, it can easily turn into an American nightmare to many people. But it’s not something they should easily give up, but they need to seek help and get the right source of help to overcome those obstacles. Q: Give me a concrete example of how CPC is helping these people? Chen: Well, I think one easy way to do it is job re-training for many qualified young immigrants. Due to immigration purpose, other than family re-unification, increasingly we look for people who have skills to come to the U.S. But a lot of time, young people of child-rearing age, when they come to America, first they don’t speak the language, they don’t know---they have no friends. Immigrants all went through the uprooting experience that they don’t know where to go. And then the next thing is that if they want to work, somebody’s got to take care of the kids first. If you don’t have childcare, you can’t work. And childcare is expensive. They can’t afford to put kids into childcare. So chicken and the egg---which one comes first? So unless you take care of the family, you cannot adjust individual endeavors. But they came here for the sole reason of building a better life for the family. They willing to go for sacrifices, but they don’t know where to start. So that’s where, sometimes, we come in at entry-level to help them retraining. What they’re good at may not be what they can find jobs at. But they don’t have avenues to retrain the potential; they may end up washing dishes, working in the restaurant. This is what the traditional insulated Chinatown has been. They’re stuck with whatever people perceive Chinatown to be. Everybody can wash dishes. Everybody can cook. Any Chinese who know how to eat can cook. That’s why they’re so many restaurants. But when you come down to it, they have better potential than the lowest common denominator. So what we focus on best is trying to find an area that can help them get into the mainstream job arena, entry level. We really cannot do extensive training because we don’t have the funds for it, but we help them to get to entry level positions. And we hope the work ethics, the attitude that they have, the ability to work, the basic skills they have, will climb up the ladder and move out. And we also know too, once they move up in the ladder in the mainstream world, they will look back and they help the next wave of people to reach where they have reached. Then we will have truly infiltrated the mainstream, and bring more people into the door, and provide access as well as helping people diversify, so you don’t have to jam all in Chinatown for a limited number of jobs, but indeed the world is out there for them to conquer. We’re only giving them help. Q: Speaking about employment training, CPC was involved with the 9/11 training. Can you give us some background information on that, and how CPC got involved with the 9/11 training, and what is the status now? Chen: The issue arrived at 9/11 is really in some ways like déjà vu. We know it all along. Before 9/11 there is Chinatown. After 9/11 there is still Chinatown. So in a sense, we’ve been doing it before 9/11. We know the issues. The issues come back and still (in) Chinatown are jobs, language, access, public policy in the sense that are the public government people who make policy aware or listening to our issues? Maybe electoral process, we don’t have enough votes so somehow never get registered at all. That all changed temporarily with 9/11. Because 9/11, the whole world was watching. Even with the whole world watching, Chinatown in the early days doesn’t get noticed at all. They were still looking at downtown, World Trade Center, immediate area. For the longest time, through the noise that we raised, we are the neighborhood! The only neighborhood that is immediately adjacent to the World Trade Center. There is no neighborhood, just Chinatown effected- the businesses. But yet, unfortunately because of a lack of city planning, Chinatown was cut off at Canal Street, south of Canal Street. Across the street, north of Canal Street, they don’t qualify, but yet they are across the street. It’s a neighborhood. How can a neighborhood be cut up just because of boundaries? Arbitrary boundary? Anyone who lives in the neighborhood knows that Chinatown boundary is way surpassed north Canal Street for the last twenty years. Once was, but no longer. It could well reaching Houston, well past Delancy. We know that. So in that sense there are a lot of issues at that time that were based on old preconceptions about Chinatown, and it takes a lot of noise, a lot of activities, and a lot of awareness. I think people want to do good. People know that Chinatown has been shortchanged. Try to catch up a little bit. And somehow there were improvements, but still basically not sufficient to deal with the issues that we tackle. And some of our new issues arrive by 9/11. The old issue that has always been there, it’s just opening up because people finally start looking at Chinatown, because of 9/11. Q: So how did the 9/11 training come about? Chen: I think the Chinatown issue, as you come down to the community, is jobs, jobs, jobs. Economy. So Chinatown is the engine of growth because we had traditionally been the garment industry and the restaurant industry. Restaurant industry is two part: one is Chinese in Chinatown eating at it. The workers who work in Chinatown need to eat in restaurants; the other part is tourism. If tourists come in, we have more business. If tourism doesn’t come in, half the business is gone. But did Chinatown close? No. Chinatown has the infrastructure, which is the workers, the people who live there. They still like to eat. They still use restaurants. They still buy Chinese groceries. But if half of the industry is gone because the garment industry is gone, then workers, several thousand people, don’t eat lunch every day in Chinatown because they’re not coming to Chinatown, then restaurants suffer. So Chinatown is very intricately related, interdependent in many industries. So the garment industry, I don’t remember an exact number, but hundreds of garment industry in Chinatown, ninety percent shut down in the immediate two weeks afterwards. It takes three months for some of them to re-open. Some of them were gone, period. This is continuing, exacerbated, of a trend already we’re developing because jobs are going overseas. But the surprise came when 9/11 really knocked the wind out of Chinatown’s economic base. So that ripple effect happened: tourism, jewelry (industry) at that time too. Jewelry is basically cheaper and better, so a lot of tourists like to come and shop. When no more tourists are coming, immediately the repercussions happened. Another area of repercussions is to immigrant families. Immigrant families are basically living on a cash-based economy. Immediately when the jobs and income suffer, the cash-base ripples into mortgages, home payment and others. And all these things become quite interrelated that somehow you’ve got to start somewhere. So we know job is the one. That’s why we focus on job training as a key issue. You give them jobs, they get active, and there is hope. But if you take away jobs, all kind of social problems happen too. So we know, that’s why we focus on that. We can’t do everything, but we know we can base on our strength and job training and try to focus on that area. Q: Was the job training successful from a client’s perspective? Chen: From a client’s perspective, yes. Even though 9/11 from the response to job training had been city-wide. That’s not only Chinatown being suffering, there are other people that are effected in 9/11. So when the funding became available, it was really city-wide. But the mechanism is really that you have to go outside of Chinatown and dedicate back to Chinatown to do a number of services. Which is not too efficient. But that’s the price that community-based organizations have to pay. But we have been effective in our experience in talking to students and the employers afterward. Basically, we know a lot of displaced garment workers identify with Chinatown. So when they seek services, they of course have language deficiency, they have a certain profile. The reason why they are stuck in garment shops is because of language, they have other reasons they didn’t go elsewhere. So when they seek services, they’re not going to city-wide to get service, they still come back to Chinatown. And for job training-wise, we found out that there were people who signed up for job training Uptown. Since they don’t have the peer support, the team support, soon enough they drop out, they ended up coming to us. I don’t know, maybe there was easier lunch here, but some sort of thing that gives you the support. So when you are vulnerable, when you feel you’re weak, tendency is to look for support. So I think CPC or the community is able to provide that kind of feeling of support. They feel comfortable, and they last longer. Otherwise, when you trying to get job training, they’re too many competition in life for them to be distracted on. So, by giving that support, they stay through the training program, and they get to the end. Q: Is that true of the other 9/11 youth program? Is that why the CPC program in Chinatown was so much more successful? Chinese people from elsewhere come to Chinatown for the relief program and not elsewhere? Is it because of the language barrier, or they find---- Chen: Absolutely, absolutely. First relieve them, when you give them resource of helping people, everybody will come. But then you find out other obstacle. It’s not so easy. “This is easier, this is harder, this is so difficult, I have to go back three more times, explain, talk until my tongue, my mouth gets dry, and still don’t get understood.” So soon enough, when the immediate urgency got relief a little bit, people start to look for the best comfort zone. So people go for service wherever it is at that time, but once the immediate move over, then they start to realize “where can I get the best service?” So hence, Chinatown start inundated with those services, which is on the, I won’t say residual, it’s a secondary wave. The first wave goes to all kind of resource, because they’re urgent, emergency. Once that space is over, they immediately come to where they can get the best service. Then Chinatown, like CPC, really got hit by the largest wave, this second wave, because they know they can get better service. Q: What’s your personal evaluation of 9/11 relief program in Chinatown? From your personal perspective? Chen: I think a lot of good intentions, a lot of lessons to be learned, alot of frustration. A lot of frustration really points to the fact that there’s never enough of an infrastructure in Chinatown to handle those emergencies. And there’s never enough trust by the mainstream organizations to realize there are capable people in the organizing community to do the work. Even though, in the end, they rely on us because they have no access to the people and people don’t access them. They still come through us. So why the inefficiency going through conduits, coming back and forth? Why not do one-stop? That’s the part that we argue, that community-based organizations is the best emergency treatment, from one-stop community based. One-stop from functional area---you can be in the Bronx, specializing in one area, but it’s not convenient in the eyes of the people receiving the service. So we’re strong advocate of one-stop service in the neighborhood, for the convenience of the recipient, not necessarily for the convenience of the funding or bureaucracy. So that is important to learn in preventing future disaster. It’s important to address the capacity level for the community-based organization, to address service hands-on, up-front, in the front line. Q: Has Chinatown recovered from 9/11 yet? Chen: Well, it recovered in many ways. There are pockets, and pockets. Some recovered really fast. I myself, actually a month after 9/11, I was walking around Canal Street when the economy was not so good. I found that I was dumbfounded. I said that everybody is so busy. So many people in Chinatown, how come they said that Chinatown’s economy is not working? I found out that the people were mainly Chinese. They were shopping in Chinese grocery stores. They come here rain or shine. They still come here because they need it. But when you really look at the diversity, Chinatown on the average basis, Chinatown is more busy on weekends than on a weekday, right? Where did they come from? The traffic would prevent those people from coming. So even though you see enough people because Chinatown is a high-density population area, you always see people, you always see activity, but are they really engaging the right kind of economic activity that Chinatown requires to sustain it? Then we find out there’s a big difference. The suffering for Chinatown now is still due to the transportation issue, less than air quality or economy. Economy has re-bounded: tourism has started coming back, people are spending money. But there are certain industries, certain trades are terrible when Chinatown can’t park. It’s exacerbated by, say, Park Row closed off. Convenient-inconvenient, where did the tourists go? They can’t park the buses anymore, they got to park elsewhere. They don’t come because of inconvenience. There are industries that are effected by it. Garment industry never rebounded because of the general trend is hurting anyway, but there are pockets that may be better than others. So it really is sector by sector. Q: Is CPC trying to retrain people in new fields to replace a displaced garment worker or people working in restaurants? Chen: Well, CPC looks at job training as really looking at a community development model. Job training means you’ve got to find jobs. If you have no jobs, why train them? It’s no success if you get people trained, and end up no job. So where are the jobs? We realize Chinatown’s limited profile garment workers: middle-aged, fifty-five, forty-five, fifty years old and up, don’t speak too much language, from a certain setting. With fifteen weeks, twenty weeks of training, you’re not going to transfer someone in a very short period of time. But if our goal is place them in gainful employment, then you’ve got to look at what’s fitting. We identified a growing trend in the home care industry, which could be very well fit into the profile for easier transition. Why? Because home care does not need fluent language. All you do is fluent in the patient’s home language. You’re sufficient to be a home attendant, home language. We know that America is getting older. The fastest growing sub sector of a growing population, the Asian community itself, is that of the Asian population. And we know it’s also cheaper for people to convalesce at home than in a hospital. So from all angles, it’s much more cost-saving and suiting for a person to recover in a home-bound situation. So yes, they need cultural language proficiency to find a worker to fill those things. It’s not the glamour kind of position, it’s not exactly high-paid, but we also see them fitting to Chinatown, because there’s a union involved. Garment industry is UNITE, Local 23-25, provides health care benefits for the family. We realized that in New York City, home care industry is unionized by 1199. They have good benefits for the family also. Knowing that Chinatown garment workers usually have husbands working somewhere in restaurants and they have no benefits, the kids have no benefits, buying insurance is expensive these days. If we can channel them into that (industry), that will help the entire family overall. So by leveraging a job and being organized with union benefits, you leverage the entire family into it. If the entire family is leveraged into it, then they don’t have to get on Child Health Plus. There’s another source the government has to pay. So we’re trying to piece the information and the resources together, one stop. So people get longitudinal help, rather than pieces, fragmented. Q: Let’s backtrack a little bit. For the 9/11 training, I’ve heard it was thirteen weeks, and there was a cash incentive. Do you think the clients came for the cash incentive or for the training? Chen: Why not? They need money. As the unemployment benefits run out, where you going to get money? They are good workers. Why should you go on welfare? Chinese are very proud people, they are reluctant to get on welfare. Why not? Why shouldn’t they get it? The question is, from the training perspective, like CETA that I mentioned before, if you can get them an opportunity that they don’t have to worry about living, and yet get training, that’s the best it can be. If the money is an incentive for them, they don’t have to compete with the attention of worrying about feeding the children, paying rent. They had eased their minds. They get paid and get training to seek new opportunity because we know the economy will change. They’ve got to get new skills, get retrained. So, the 9/11 Fund provides a wonderful opportunity. So for the short period of time, they don’t have to worry about it. And yet, they’re getting something new. Q: But, was that successful? Were you worried that people came to the training, took the money and then gone? Chen: Unfortunately, there are that type too, that they only want the money because they’re not interested in training. That’s where the part, that sometime we try to look at ways to use the window of opportunity, to plant some ideas in them, that they can get by asking for service, by seeking help, they don’t have to stop with what we have. We are not always successful in that. But I think so far we’ve been successful in, for those who just want the money, when they leave, they’ve got more than money. And that’s what we’re aiming at. They may only be interested when they walk in, by the time they get out of the door, we know they’ve got more than money. Q: What do you elaborate on the “more” part? Chen: They make friends. They see that there’s organizing in the community, that people can help people, and we do referrals. And CPC has other services, other than the job that they come for or the money they come for. They see that, “Gee, my kids have a problem” and then there’s resources available to answer some of the questions that otherwise they don’t know where to ask. So in some way, for us it’s been good too, because we have been publicizing to people who otherwise we won’t reach to the people who only care about money, and we don’t have money to give. Normally they may not come to us, but they have needs. But through that process, a lot of people get to know us a little bit more, in terms of we can do. They walk in the door for reason A, but ending up they find that there’s a whole other cart that they can pick, a lot of services. Q: How do clients come to CPC? Chen: A lot of it is word of mouth, a lot of it is through---I think it’s basically word of mouth because we have a good track record. People get services, they talk about it, and then they said, “Where can I get services, I have this problem….” I say, “Well, check CPC out,” and then they come to us. Again, we become the conduit to many services beyond us. We can’t do them all, but knowing what’s available in the community, and people come to us. The worst is that they don’t tell anybody. You can’t force people to get services. It has to be awareness by themselves that they need to get help. This is what we say, empowering people, make people aware, open up, then you can help them. If you don’t tell them the truth, doctors can’t even diagnose the right problem. You can tell them all kinds of reason, and you won’t get any help. Q: How about the funding for 9/11? What that government funding, or private fund? And if they were private funds, how did they hear about CPC? Chen: Well, it’s an interesting thing. 9/11 is a terrible disaster, but there was a tremendous good response from the American public. So there is a lot of money donated, no question asked, as long as you’re doing 9/11, and we are obviously one of the people on the front line doing that. We don’t get a lot of money, but we do get more than we otherwise got. So in the end, I know total funding, the most we got was focused on job training, that was more by the 9/11 private fund, not the LMDC (Lower Manhattan Development Corporation), but the private fund that was conduited through the United Way and Community Trust. And our focus is mainly through Employment and Training Grant. They have money for other components of service. But the other services, we do the small grant. We try to focus them back on job training and support services to workers. We ended up with small pocket of money to do with childcare, to impact the family, scholarships. We try to help people get short-term cash need basis, buying food in the early days, paying rent because they are disrupted. So they need immediate cash to address some of the immediate issues that they had, we did that, too. So it was the combination of private funds, different private funds. Unfortunately, there is not too much government fund during that time because the government undergo the budget, economics problem. The only potential was LMDC, which receives a lot of federal money, but that is so slow because all eyes are only on the ground zero. They never really look past downtown. And only in Phase Two were they talking downtown, but they were talking infrastructure, renovating parks, building expressway to JFK, to facilitate the economic development, building a bus station of Fulton Street, so the rest of the city can access downtown for revival. Building 9/11 Memorial Plaza, all this stuff. It’s great, wonderful stuff to rebuild New York, but not enough addressed to the particular Chinatown needs from the government’s 9/11 federal money, as of yet. That’s the biggest frustration we have in this community. Q: What can you do to get the money from LMDC to rebuild Chinatown? Chen: Well, right now, most of the money is gone already. There are a few infrastructure monies left, so we are not giving up. We’re still going to meetings, raise a lot of issues. If we’ve got to get crumbs, we want to get some crumbs too, we never want to give them up. The lingering issue we’re still continues with is parking. Parking is one that historically strangled with Chinatown. Chinatown paid a price of traffic congestion, because we are between two bridges. Every truck that comes through New York City, lower Manhattan, comes through Holland Tunnel. Every truck tries to short-cut without paying the toll for Verrazano Bridge, comes from Brooklyn, Fourth Avenue, and comes through Manhattan Bridge, and pours into Chinatown, then they go into downtown, there is no bridge. Battery Tunnel doesn’t have trucks going into Battery Tunnel. Brooklyn Bridge doesn’t take commercial traffic. So where do the trucks come from? They all come through Canal Street, they all pass through Chinatown. Chinatown has paid a price, but when the problem hit, Chinatown don’t get paid attention in terms of resources to deal with traffic congestion. Traffic congestion immediately lead to parking issue, they’re related. Unless the issue gets addressed, the perennial problem that Chinatown has for the last thirty years will not be addressed. But this is an issue that, because of 9/11, when you deal with traffic issues in lower Manhattan, maybe we can rub some shine off, that maybe someone will finally have some residual money to address that issue. The cultural issue, of course, is the tourist attraction. We want to make Chinatown an item on the map for out of town tourists. New York people already know, they come to Chinatown to eat and shop. But then, we’ve got to reach to the out of town people, who see Chinatown as a place, a must-stop location. Or, stop by downtown museum, but come by to Chinatown for meals, and when they come up for meals, you’ve got to find a place to park, otherwise, say “Well, I bypass, I skip it, too much, take two hours parking, I move on”. That’s why one of the comprehensive issues we’ve got to address. Q: Okay, let’s pull back a little bit about all these macro issues, and focus on you for a minute. Tell me how did you end up working at CPC, and how long you’ve been working, and how you started? All these stuff. Chen: Oh, sounds like ancient history, sometimes when you think about it. Well, I’ve been with CPC, let’s see now, this is my twenty-third year. I started out at CPC as being a tourist, coming to visit New York and then people told me that, “If you want to work in Chinatown, there are actually jobs, so in that sense, check it out”, and find out there’s an opportunity that CPC was hiring for youth director. So I applied, and they interviewed me on the phone, and they hired me. So the next thing I know, I’m driving a moving truck and move all my stuff out here, and I run the youth program. And from then on--- Q: ---backtrack. Chen: Yes. Q: Which youth program and where was it? Chen: Project Reach, which is an at-risk prevention program, for at-risk young people. It was once upon a time known as a gang program. It’s not really a gang, but it’s a lot of troubled kids. So in that sense, I find it challenging, I thought that New York, that if you can beat New York, you can do it anywhere. So I’m one of those people, I want to take my chances. And I tell myself, “If things don’t work, I put on my resume that I traveled for a year, I’m back to the good old days. Go back to my life”. But one thing lead to another. It’s a good lesson for other people who want to check out Chinatown, to realize that once you get into the community, you find there is so much you can do. It’s very frustrating, it’s very challenging, and there was a reason why I lasted twenty-three years. And once you get into youth, you realize that you help youth through family, through family you understand the community, you understand that unless it’s a better environment, it does take a village to help a young person. So in that sense, that’s why eventually, get broader and broader, and becoming executive director of CPC, and (in charge of) the comprehensive service, and no longer youth. And I said that, “hen you’re young you talk about youth, when you’re old, you put on reading glasses, you talk about senior citizens”. But it’s all the same issue, giving access to people who need the service. Q: So you came to Chinatown in the ‘80s. What was Chinatown like back then? Chen: Chinatown was much smaller. I think it was smaller in the ‘70s, ’80 was really blossoming, changing. Access is opening up. Chinatown is no longer Chinatown, Chinese immigrant population got spread out to Queens. It was spreading in the ‘70s already, in the ‘80s on the verge of getting to Brooklyn. Brooklyn hasn’t really appeared that much. It’s a bedroom community for people who can’t afford Queens. But it was happening, but not exactly surfaced. But as we know, in the late ‘80s, ’90s, Sunset Park, Avenue U, established community popped up with streets of stores, business, institutions, banks opening, hospitals start going there. But Chinatown finally realized that Chinatown is a cultural center, not a residential, it’s not a garment shop, it’s not restaurant, it’s not laundry. I can’t even find laundry anymore. Once upon a time, you have laundry, right? But where’s the laundry, right? Chinatown changed. But then the service industry started spreading out, because where people lived, the needs, the job base, the opportunities, shift. So you see Chinatown being the cultural center, more and more than just one residential or job, atypical job. But they’re diversified, diversity tremendously going into Chinatown neighborhood. Q: What was the demographic before the ‘80s, and what was the demographic after the ‘80s? You said there was a tremendous change. Chen: Tremendous changes. When people saw demographic Asian, Chinese in New York, grows, is not in Chinatown region, the neighborhoods, it’s a city-wide population growing, double every ten years. But Chinatown population, the census figure is still few zip codes, 10012, 002, whatever, but you put it together, the demographic didn’t change that much, remained at the same amount of number. But however, there is a turnover of people. I think I read some statistics that about two in five Chinese walking on the street in Chinatown arrived in the last five years. That means this is a transient neighborhood. There are older timers who stayed, but transient people keep on churning, keep on coming, keep on coming and going. What you say five years ago, the guy you are talking to now may not be heard because it’s not the same guy. Mainstream may tend to say, “It’s the same Chinese, they’re all the same”, but reality you know, that diversity also come in wave upon wave of new immigrant, and how to move on and move up and move out. And maybe we’re so successful, we try to keep moving out. New people come in because Chinatown is an incubator for people, they feel secure, there are roots. But what we do is give them wings so they fly. Hopefully they come back and help the next wave. In that fact, the demographic in Chinatown didn’t change, but the turnaround. You know they may have come through and recycled in different neighborhoods. Chinatown is an ethnic center, people come back, identify with it, they shop here. The bank opened seven days here, right? And this is not a Chinese bank, this is Chase, they’re opened seven days here because they realize the potential, the market is even bigger. But when you look at how many people live here, not many people live here. That’s the dynamics, the unique thing that Chinatown played, in the sense that it influenced much broader than Chinatown, but the number of people who live here have remained pretty much the same throughout the period. Q: We’re going to backtrack a little back to your personal experience. Before coming to New York’s Chinatown, what led you to want to work in Chinatown? Chen: Well, I guess when I wandered into graduated at that time, I majored in social work school, in community organizing. And being a community organizing major, you felt frustrated, the ivory tower doesn’t do enough, so you start volunteering for work. And then I found the Chicago Chinatown, Iwent to the University of Chicago at that time, and I found that the nearest Chinatown was Chicago’s Chinatown. And Chicago’s Chinatown was mainly two streets, the stores and neighborhood. It was really like Sunset Park in many ways. And there are no jobs. You only volunteered. So a few graduate students pooled our resources together. I remember we got City College to pay us eight dollars an hour. We all promised to teach four hours in Chinatown, two hours on Saturday, two on Sunday. And there were eight of us, and we pooled together, we made enough money to rent a storefront. We started doing stuff. But unfortunately, a student’s a student. When we graduated, we left. Nothing stayed. So when I graduated social work school, I went looking for a job. And there was no more playing around, I needed a job. There was no job. So I landed a job at the mayor’s office in Chicago at that time as a planner, evaluator for the employment and training part. And that opened me up to a lot of diversity issues, of other minority youth, but yet how come there is no Chinese funding? And the obstacles, you realize how they just don’t write proposals, you don’t know where the issues are, but there is no job in Chinatown. So that’s when I mentioned that on vacation I came to Chinatown New York, and they told me there are jobs here. And you got to do what you want. So I said check it out, and I sign up, and that’s how I started, and how I get into it. But of course, deep inside, through school days, I recognized the fact that there are communities to be helped, there are people in the community that need to be helped. And I understand the needs of immigrant, when really they have no language capability, or they have no support, that the less fortunate ones have nowhere to turn. So in that sense, there needs to be some kind of access provided from within that would be tremendously useful. And that, somehow, my leading from school awareness that brought up this young person, and tied up to the opportunity, and then bump my head on the wall in Chinatown, New York, and then you realize there is so much more that can be done. Q: You want to help the community, is that because of your family background? Is your family a typical immigrant family, or did you come from a totally different background? Give me a little bit of information about your background. Chen: I came from a pretty different background, in the sense that I would say we were from the relatively privileged background. Father was an engineer, middle class. I would say middle class, upper middle class background. And all middle class families want their Chinese sons and daughters to be engineers or doctors. So I’m one of those guys who don’t like chemistry. So take out chemistry, you’re not into any of these fields, engineer or doctor. So I tried to straddle between fulfilling a family obligation and my own inclination. So soon enough, I find out that I’m very interested in social studies issues. And then, of course, as a typical Chinese, I confronted issues, social studies don’t make a living. So soon enough I find out that in social studies, in liberal arts training as undergraduate, it’s good to be in economics for the foothold in rational thinking, and business. But I have an educated dad, and he asked me a question. “In economics, you get a PhD, you teach. You get a BA, you become a bank cashier. So which one do you want to be?” So that was always one of the questions. The funny part was that, as I get more into economics, I realize that economics had a macro issue about monetary economics. And in macro economics, we deal with infrastructure issue, community. And then I evolve an interest to want to work for underdeveloped communities, like Third World, IMF (International Monetary Fund) banking, United Nations type of thing. But those are wishes, never really had the hope to. But interesting thing was, opportunity arise, I bump into community, Chinatown, and I realize that you don’t need to look for a Third World community elsewhere, there’s a Third World community right in our back yard. So in that sense, that’s when I volunteer in Chinatown, and try to bridge and actually end up bridging in terms of my personal inclination of searching, to land in something that I thought I can find. My skills and my inclination incubated for twenty-some years, it becomes part of me. Q: Final questions: where were you born, where did you grow up? Chen: Well, for a very short period of time, I was in China. I was born in Shanghai. Few months old, maybe less than a few months old, carried as a baby by my parents, typical of refugees, went to Hong Kong. Hong Kong was the upbringing years of mine, went to school there, brought into the environment until I was in high school. And I spent my last high school year, twelfth grade, in the U.S. Prior to that, my teenager (years), getting lost, peers, are all in Hong Kong. Q: How did you come to the U.S.A.? What motivated you to come? Chen: Well, motivate me--- Q: You came by yourself? Chen: Yes, pretty much so. In those days my parents are very smart, educated parents. They realize that if I come as young person, young boy, I would end up signing up for the draft and go to Vietnam. They don’t want me to be drafted. If I don’t become a resident and citizen right away, and come as a student first because everybody got a student deferment. So I came as a student. In the meantime, my father pretty much is a traveling businessman. So in essence, we do that, and then once the draft is over, we change the status so become citizen. So pretty much my background is one of immigrants. I would say lucky immigrant, have choices, know how to maneuver the system, so to speak. Q: Perfect. We’re done. That’s good. [END OF INTERVIEW] Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh) 問﹕2004年7月13日，我現在於華策會訪問陳受權，地點在紐約州紐約市華埠伊利沙白街150號，陳先生，請你告訴我，你的工作，跟誰做工？ 陳﹕我是華策會的行政總監，華策會是華埠的社區服務機構。 問﹕那一個機構？ 陳﹕華策會。 問﹕可否描述一下華策會(CPC)的歷史？ 陳﹕好，華策會已有40年歷史，是一個以社區為本的組織，在1965年已開展工作，協助新移民，多年來，我們做很多工作，由語言班到各類申請、翻譯、日間托兒所、成人職業訓練、老人中心、輪椅送餐、家庭護理、廉租屋、及兒童福利，應有盡有。 問﹕華策會是何時成立的？ 陳﹕在1965年已經成立，如你們熟悉大社會時代，這是林頓．詹森總統的努力成果。我們看見基層工作的重要，以熟悉他們需求及合適他們文化的方式，有效地將服務帶給他們， 於是在六十年代就開展了草根階層運動。 問﹕當在60年代開始時，華策會服務了多少名求助者？ 陳﹕雖然當時我不在紐約華埠，但當時的社區比現在小很多，人口只有八千，只是很小的社區。那類服務，依我看來，求助者主要學英文、老人需要的基本服務及翻譯，在這情況下，只要一開門，少年人就始聚集，好像有個落腳地，人們問你問題，他們才知道下一步怎麼辦。 草根運動繼續進行，漸漸地，經費多了，有機會獲得更多金錢撥款，我們像是演進了，起初時，只有少數人疏疏落落地來，他們只需基本資料及轉介。 問﹕你提及經費，那時是如何取得的？ 陳﹕我知道那時第一筆經費是社區發展機構發動靜坐示威得來的，那是給收入偏低的下城華埠的一次過贈款，讓某些資源及政府資源分配出去，所以，那時候，華人對服務的要求也不高。華策會領先體驗到華人既然納稅，就應該得到某些服務，所以我們帶頭倡議教育今日的社區，不再標榜是從台灣、香港、海外來的或是外人，要是運用我們的權力，我們有需要爭取服務，所以要組織示威，就得到第一筆贈款。 　　與此同時，最主力給予華策會的贈款是CETA--全面職業培訓法案—所提供的基本工作訓練贈款， 對於我們來說極為重要，因為它支付了華策會第一筆租金，讓人們前來，全面職業培訓法案那時給他們津貼，鼓勵他們脫離低收入的工作，提供再培訓，發展他們的潛質，以致他們可以提升自己，該計劃給學員提供少量的津貼、午餐錢、車費，令他們有所選擇。否則，對移民在說，如果你不提供一些獎勵，他們怎會放下原來低收入的工作，前來接受訓練？所以早期的CETA能因應社區的需要，鼓勵一些原本不會前來的人肯來到，華策會是實現這目標的工具。 問﹕你可告訴我華策會現在的預算案是多少？撥款又從何而來？陳﹕那，華策會現在的預算案龐大，我們在40年前開始時只有89元，但本會發展大了，政策改變了，政府參與社區服務的情況改變了，所以，我們抓緊這個機會，演進成為龐大的機構、分會及其他的組織。我們獲聯邦、州及市三級的撥款，大部份合約的款項來自市府，但市府亦包含聯邦的撥款，所以，看似來自城市的款項其實是從多處合成而來的資源。 問﹕其他的合成是什麼？你可否給我們一個細節？陳﹕好的，如你結算總款項，超過九成來自政府撥款，其中，直接來自市府的約有70個百分點，州府有20個百分點，視乎個別的經費及活動而定，其實是視乎經費的來源，是直接由聯邦撥出，抑或是透過市府撥出但間接由聯邦撥出。 問﹕你可以給我一個計劃作為例子，是由機構撥款，該計劃又是做什麼的？ 陳﹕好的，舉例說，兒童托兒。托兒經費主要由市府而來，州府又津貼，最後，錢可能由政府而來，但它…… (錄音帶中斷) 問﹕華策會的計劃是由市機構贊助的嗎？ 陳﹕我會說從市府的角度，最大的計劃是青少年及托兒計劃，主要是課稅錢、聯邦錢，或一次過贈與的市府錢，但托兒及青少年大部份來自地區撥款，所以我說政策而言，撥款受到地區的需要及資源的影響。 問﹕那些市府機構是什麼？ 陳﹕那些市府機構是兒童服務機構、青少年及社區發展部。 問﹕預算案是多少，華策會托兒受惠的兒童又有多少？陳﹕托兒服務方面，我們有課後補習及幼兒班，視乎年齡而定，總預算大概在650萬。青少年計劃資源短缺，撥款短缺，服務時時因資源分散而中斷，因我想所有機構的青少年計劃預算總和約在一百萬元以下。 問﹕這經費估計可令多少人受惠？ 陳﹕你說到一些可伸可縮的數字，數字是否重算或不要重算？也是以青少年問題為例， 因為計算青少年服務是以繼續個案的處理性質及個人及青少年發展事項而算，也有按遊戲的次數來算，例如一少年進來補習一次算一次服務，入來兩次算兩次服務，所以諷刺的是，我們喜歡不重算，只算一次，你一共幫了多少人？但是如果一名青少年進來，下棋又打籃球，我們會算兩次，是不是？這是計算我們服務的舊說法，形容我們的活躍程度，但華策會需要的是路向，是要為不同的人提供不同的服務，發揮影響力，則需要按人計，而不是按人次計，按人次計不能反映所服務的人口數目。 問﹕讓我再問，多少人以為華策會是政府機構，你認為華策會這機構和私人組織或機構有什麼分別？ 陳﹕我們是提供公眾服務的私人組織，像我以前所說，我們獲得撥款，90多百分點源自政府，但我們按合約的要求，通過投標步驟(RFP)，提交建議書，通過競爭，審查資歷，在競爭中投標，又贏得合約，取得公共經費，我們像私人機構，但我們是遞交501(c)的非牟利機構。 (錄音帶中斷) 陳﹕華策會是私人的非牟利機構，屬於501(c)的免稅組織，我們差不多是從事公共服務的私人機構，我們的經費，百分之90是從政府而來，透過建議的RFP步驟，那是一個競爭激烈的步驟，需要符合各部門撥出款項的要求，在步署、方法及建議上均要展示我們可以成事的能力。基本上，我們這樣取得經費，但我們的董事──當然那是非牟利，志願性質的董事會──基本上是有公眾興趣的公民， 監察我們的款項是否運用得宜。基本上，我們的組織竭盡所能在社區層面將撥款運用得最好。 問﹕華策會的服務對象從那裡來？陳﹕我們的服務對象，其實是來自需要我們的人，他們亦視乎我們的使命及目的而來，我們的使命基本上指幫助新移民──尤其是華人家庭──獲得服務，和主流人士接觸，強調經濟上自給自足，以致他們能在主流社會生活，這是我們致力的方針。當然，我們透職業訓練、托兒轉介、屋房、移民等服務達成這些目標，讓他們知道到那裡尋求服務，獲得答案、轉介。 問﹕為什麼他們要到華策會而不是到其他機構？陳﹕很久以前，我們是唯一一個也是第一個，所以他們都來找我們。漸漸地來，我們在華埠的十條街內變成一個聲譽良好，值得信靠的機構。但與此同時，華埠亦發生轉變，機構增多了，所提供的專家服務亦多了。諷刺的是，透過我們的轉介，我們把求助者轉到別的合適機構，讓他們取得最好的服務。 問﹕你認為現在華埠所提供的的服務足夠嗎？ 陳﹕沒有，距離目標尚遠呢。我可以說，我們盡努力給人們更體貼的服務，在人們看來是一站式服務，但沒有機構能做所有的事情，新人口的挑戰是，他們的需要不同事項，他們的來自地方不同、背景不同，而我們只能做這麼多。漸漸地，我們明白他們的需要，提供轉介，我們盡量做，但只能作出轉介， 我們成為人們需要及華埠市場之間的橋樑，為本身不知道如何在外面取得服務的社區人士，獲得良好的機會。 問﹕現在缺乏什麼服務？ 陳﹕他們缺乏資訊，新人前來，十分無知，拿著行李到來，用老國家的老方法做事，不明白在美國的風俗及法例已改變。美國是一個自由國家，但你也得知道如何獲取權利，否則這權益也不屬於你的，這就是移民所缺乏的。很多人空有美國夢，到來這裡，但如果不知道如何實踐，甚至可能變成美國夢魘。 但他們不應輕易放棄，他們應尋求協助，獲得合適的資源，克服那些障礙。 問﹕華策會如何幫助這些人？請給我一個具體的例子。 陳﹕一個現成的例子，是給有資格的年青移民工作再培訓，由於移民除了家庭團聚外，漸漸多了因技能而來的移民，但很多時，他們同時是年青的父母親，來到美國，未通曉英文，又沒有朋友，他們有被連根拔起的感受，不知道何去何從，但隨即就要工作養活家庭。如沒有托兒服務，他們根本就不能工作，但托兒費用不便宜，他們又沒有足夠的錢將孩子送往托兒，所以魚與熊掌，難以取捨，你要照顧家庭，就不能實踐你的個人理想。但他們來的唯一目的是找尋更好的生活，他們願意犧牲，但不知道如何開始，所以在這個時候，我們給他們工作再培訓， 他們現在所從事的工作未必是他們擅長的，但如果他們沒有接受再培訓的機會，他們最終只能一直洗盤碗，在餐館工作，這是傳統被與世隔絕的華埠人士一直從事的工作，逃不過對別人對華人社區的一貫看法。 每個人都可以洗盤碗，每個人都可以煮菜，任何懂得吃的人都可以煮菜，所以有這麼多餐館，但實際上，他們具有比這些基本技能更多的潛質，最能發揮的方法是讓他們參與主流的工作市場，從基本開始，我們並不能做大量的培訓，因為沒有這麼多的經費。我們可給他們找初階的職位，希望他們學得工作操守，工作態度、工作能力，及基本技巧，使他們會離開原本的工作，爬上工作的階梯。 我們也知道，如他們能夠到主流世界爬上工作的階梯，回頭時也會幫助下一波移民走他們曾經走過的路，才能真正滲入主流，為更多人打開門路，幫助他們更多樣化，便不需擠在華埠爭做同樣的工作。但他們要自己征服世界，我們只能從旁協助。 問﹕提及職業訓練，華策會也舉辦9/11訓練計劃，你可否告訴我們一些有關背景資料，華策會怎樣參與9/11的訓練，現在的訓練情況又如何？ 陳﹕講到9/11，華埠又如後備，我們知道9/11慘劇之前也有華埠，9/11之後仍然有華埠，我在9/11前從事同樣工作，我們明白華埠的需要，華埠的需要事前事後到現在也一樣﹕工作、語言、爭取權益、公眾政策，即是說，要使公職人員制訂政策時聆聽我們的需要。可能選舉過程中，我們沒有足夠的選票，所以有時我們沒有被注意到，但由於9/11，情況有暫時的改變，因為全世界都在注視9/11事件， 但初時華埠都未有獲得注意，他們只注意下城部份，世貿中心及它的周邊，大部份的時間，我們縱使大聲疾呼我們是鄰區，但他們認為鄰區只是連接著世貿中心的高樓大廈，華埠不算鄰區，只是生意受影響而已。而且，不幸地，在城市規劃不周的情況下，他們將受影響的華埠範圍一分為二，以堅尼路為界，堅尼路以南是影響區，在對面街的堅尼路以北就沒有資格了，他們怎麼可以以街為界將一個鄰舍強行分開，而這條界是模稜兩可的。任何住在地區的人老早都知道華埠的範圍在近廿年已超過堅尼路，很早期曾經是界，但早已不是，華埠可遠達曉士頓街，超過地蘭西，我們早就知道。 所以在此情況下，那時很多事項是按著老舊既有的觀念看華埠，我們要發出很大的抗議聲、舉辦很多的活動、作出很多的提醒。我知道人們本來想把事情做好，人們知道華埠被忽略，就要趕緊補償一點點，所以作了一點改善的動作，改善是好，但基本上不足以解決我們所應付的難題，及一些因9/11而來的新問題。舊問題仍然存在，但只是新開始，因為人們因9/11終於注意華埠了。 問﹕所以9/11培訓計劃如何得來的？ 陳﹕我認為華埠的問題，如你走到社區找答題，是工作、工作、工作，經濟，華埠仍然是發展的動力，因為傳統的行業是車衣及餐館業。餐館的客源有兩類：一類是在華埠的華人食客，華埠的工人本身需要在餐館吃東西，第二部份是遊客，如遊客前來，就有更多生意，如遊客不來，一半的生意就告吹。但華埠會否倒閉呢，不，因為華埠有基本建設，它就是住在這裡的工人，他們仍然要食，仍然要用這裡的餐館，仍然要買菜，但如因為衣廠已倒閉，令一半的行業倒閉， 則數以千計的工人不能工作，就不能在華埠吃午餐，那餐館行業就大受打擊，所以華埠各行業是息息相關，互相依賴的。 所以在製衣業，我記不起準確數字，華埠起碼有數百間衣廠，百分之九十在9/11後兩星期內關閉了，有些要三星期才重開，有些就此永遠倒閉，這趨勢是繼續原有的弱勢，因為美國的工作本來就流失海外，但9/11突如其來地將華埠的經濟根基動搖，一如漣漪般效應，旅遊業、珠寶業也相應受影響，華埠珠寶價廉物美，所以很多遊客喜歡來購物，當遊客止步時，經濟立時受牽連。其他受牽連的是移民家庭，移民家庭基本使用是現金為主，當工作及收入受到打擊時，現金的根本通通用作房貸、家用及其他用途上，這些事情是大有牽連的，工作是首要因素。所以我們要集中職業培訓，你給他們工作，他們就會活躍起來，希望就來了﹔相反，你拿走工作，所有的社會問題就來了。我們明白這點，就集中這計劃，不能做所有事，但可以利用固有的優勢及工作培訓，嘗試做好這一點。 問﹕從受助者的角度來看，職業培訓是否成功？陳﹕從受助者的角度來看，是成功的，就算9/11，全市都有就業訓練的需要，不單止華埠受到損害，其他人也受到9/11的影響，所以當有經費時，其實是給全市的。但真正的動力，是要走出華埠以外，然後回饋到華埠，從事數項服務，這不是很有效率的做法，但這是以社區為本的機構所付出的代價。在其後我們與學生和僱主的對話中明白，證明這經驗行之有效。基本上， 我們認識很多以華埠為家的熟手車衣工人，當他們尋求服務時固然有語言障礙，他們特徵很明顯，因為言語不通，及其他因素而被困在車衣廠，所以當他們要尋求服務時，不去全市尋求服務，仍然到華埠找援手。 對於職業培訓而言，我們發覺有一些人在上城報讀職業培訓，是因為他們沒有同輩或團隊的支援，很快他們就退學，又走回到我們中間，我不明白箇中原因，可能這裡的午餐較容易得到，但這裡他們找到一些支援。當你是容易受傷，軟弱時，你傾向於尋求支持，我認為華策會或社區能給他們支持的感覺，如他們感覺自然，他們會持久一些，否則，他們在嘗試接受職業訓練期間，生活上會有太多競爭令人分心，如獲得支持，他們在訓練中可堅持到底。 問﹕是否其他9/11青少年計劃也一樣道理？是否因為同樣原因，華策會的計劃在華埠得以成功？來自其他地方的華人在尋求援助時要來華埠，而不是去其他地方，是因為語言障礙，或他們發覺……？ 陳﹕絕對是，絕對是。首先是叫他們寬心，當你提供的服務可幫助他們，他們就會來，但那時候，你又面對其他障礙了，事情並不容易，「這個容易點，這個難一點，這個很困難，我要反覆向他們再三解釋到口舌都乾了，他們仍然不明白，」所以，當即時緊急需要得到了舒緩時，人們又要求另一些更舒服的享受了。所以人們在不同時候有不同的需要，當急需過了時，他們開始想到﹕「在那裡可找到更佳的服務？」所以，華埠就湧現這些服務，是餘波服務，或是第二波服務。第一波是取得各方面的資源，因為那是緊急及即時的，當那些服務完滿了，他們馬上想到其他地方接受更好服務。 所以，華埠──如華策會──是受到最大沖擊的第二波，因為他們知道他們可以取得更好服務。 問﹕你個人如何評論華埠9/11救災計劃？陳﹕我認為很多原意的是好的事情也有很多值得反省，令人沮喪的地方，令人沮喪的事情指華埠從來沒有足夠的建設來處理這些緊急事項，也沒有足夠的信心依賴主流組織有能有足夠人才來組織社區，處理這些緊急事項。雖然到最後，他們依賴我們做，因為他們未能自己接觸人群，或人們不會到他們那裡尋求服務，他們仍然來到我們這裡。所以，這些服務要透過我們這中間人，翻來覆去，好像減低了效率。為什麼沒有一站式服務？ 這是我們爭論的一環，即是以社區為本的組織可提供最好的緊急服務，是一站式以社區為本的。如果在功能角度是一站式的，你可以在布朗士區專注一種服務，但在接受服務者來說並不方便。所以我們極力主張在社區角度一站式服務，方便受助者，而不是方便撥款或繁文縟節，所以，我們要學習防患未然，要在以社區為本的組織中衡量能力，到前線送出服務。 問﹕華埠在9/11後，恢復了元氣嗎？陳﹕是，在很多方面恢復了元氣，但這是分批、分階段的。有些很快恢復過來，其實在9/11後一個月，我在堅尼路散步，當時經濟仍然好不過來，但我驚覺行人仍然熙來攘往，華埠有這麼多人，怎麼還說經濟不好呢？我發現當中主要是中國人，他們到華埠雜貨店購物，風雨不改，他們之所以來，是因為他們有需要，但你如要看民族的多元化， 華埠平時在周末比在周日繁忙，是不是？他們從那裡來呢？交通會妨礙他們來。所以就算你見到行人夠多了，主要是因為華埠本來是人口稠密的地方，你時時看到人與事，但那是否華埠賴以為生的經濟活動呢？然後我們發覺距離事實還差得遠呢。 華埠所受的打擊主要仍然在交通事項、次品質的空氣，經濟問題上。經濟在某方面已恢復﹕遊客開始回來，人們捨得花錢，但有某些行業及貿易活動仍然很差，因為華埠不能泊車，尤是是柏路被關閉，令情況更嚴重。旅客會去方便的地點，或是不方便的地點呢？巴士不能在華埠停泊，總要到別處泊，因為不方便，他們就不會來，有些行業特別受影響。車衣業一蹶不振，因為大勢本來就不利，但也有一些行業比其他的行業好，所以其實是，個別行業際遇不同。 問﹕華策會是否嘗試為失業的車衣工人或餐館工人提供職業再培訓？ 陳﹕這樣的，華策會視職業培訓為社區發展模式，職業培訓意思是說你要找尋工作，如你沒有提供工作，為什麼要訓練他們呢？如訓練了人，最後沒有給他們工作就等於不成功。所以工作在那裡呢？我們知道華埠的車衣工人的剪影是怎樣的？中年，55歲，45歲，55歲或以上，不會說英語，來自背景差不多。透過短短15個星期至20個星期的訓練，你不能將他們轉職，但如我們的目標是要他們在行業賺得更多，你就要看什麼是合適，我們發覺從事護理行業的人漸增，適合這些背景的人轉職，為什麼？因為護理不需要流利的語言，你只需在病人的家中說流利語言，只需說該家庭所講的語言即可。 我們知道美國人口漸趨老化，在亞裔社區而言，最快增長的人口群是亞裔人口，我們知道家庭護理的費用比醫院護理較便宜，所以從多個角度看，在家庭復康比較省錢及更舒適，所以，是的，他們需要一些熟悉文化及操流利語言的工人來做事，這不是光芒耀眼的工作，也不是非常高薪工作，但他們適合華埠人士，因為那是工會工作，我們明白在紐約市，家庭護理行業屬於1199工會，他們可以給工人全家好福利，我們知道華埠車衣工人的丈夫通常都在餐館工作，沒有什麼福利，孩子也沒有福利，近年買醫療保險又十分昂貴，如我們將他們轉到該行業，可以幫助他們全家，所以在工會提供福利的前提下，全家也獲得福利，如全家都有福利，他們就不需要兒童加健，這是政府需要負擔的資源，所以我們嘗試將資訊及資源合併一起，提供一站或服務，給人們長遠的服務，而不是零散的服務。 問﹕讓我們再回頭講9/11訓練計劃，我聽說是13個星期，又有現金獎勵，你認為受助人前來是因為有現金，抑或因為有訓練？ 陳﹕這又有何不可？他們需要錢，當失業金短缺時，你到那裡找到錢？他們是好工人，為什麼要領救濟？這又有何不可？為什麼他們不能領？問題是，從訓練的角度，像我以前提及的CETA，如你給他們機會，讓他們不需擔心生活，又可接受訓練是最好的方法，如錢是一種獎勵，他們就不需擔心子女的食物及租金，安心取得款項，接受訓練，找尋新機會。因為經濟情況可能改變，他們要學得新技巧，接受職業再培訓。 所以，9/11撥款是一個很好的機會，所以短期內，他們不需要擔心，同時學到一些新事物。 問﹕但計劃算成功嗎？你不擔心人們來你處接受訓練，拿取金錢後，然後走了。 陳﹕是的，不幸地，也有這類人，他們只志在錢，並不志在培訓，有時我們需要以機會的角度來看這個部份，給他們一些選擇，他們只要肯尋找就可獲得服務，不會滿足現狀。雖然我們不是常常成功，但我認為至少到現在是成功的，因為那些一心志在錢的學員，當離開時，他們獲得比金錢更重要的東西，而這正是我們的目的，當他們前來時，他們可能只感到興趣，當他們踏出校門時，我們知道他們獲得的比金錢更重要。 問﹕你所謂的「更重要」指什麼？ 陳﹕他們結交了朋友，知道社區有組織，人們可以互相幫忙，及獲得轉介，及華策會有其他服務，不僅是他們需要的工作或金錢，他們明白到一旦「我的孩子有問題」時，可獲得資源，或回答一些他們不知道那裡尋求答案等問題。 所以在某些情況下，對我們是好的，因為我們向人宣傳，如果沒有金錢攻勢他們就不會來，但我們平日沒有錢派，他們可能不會來，但他們其實有需要。透過這課程，很多人知道多了。我們按所能去做，他們走進來是因為原因甲，但最後他們發現另有一籃子的東西可以用，有很多服務。 問﹕受助者如何到華策會來？ 陳﹕很多人是靠口耳相傳前來的，或是其他，我認為基本上是靠口碑，因為我們已經做過很多好事，人們獲得服務，會討論，然後他們說：「我們在那裡可取得服務，我們有這難題……」我就會說：「好吧！到華策會談一談吧！」然後他們就來了。再者，我們成為他們獲得其他服務的導引者。我們不能每事都做，但知道社區裡有什麼，人們又來我們這裡問。他們要自己意識到要來尋求協助，就是我們說的，給他們資訊，讓他們知道，打開門，你就可以幫助他們。如你不將事實告訴他們，醫生也不能正確地斷症，你可以告訴他們所有原因，但他們自己不會得到任何幫助。 問﹕那9/11的經費怎樣了？那是政府撥款，還是私人撥款？他們怎樣聽到有關華策會的事？ 陳﹕那是有趣的事情，9/11是恐怖的災難，美國公眾反應很大，所以捐獻很多金錢，不會留難，只要你做9/11工作。我們顯然是前線的人物，雖然沒有得到很多撥款，但總比平時多了一些，所以最後我們獲得的總撥款，最多在於職業培訓，因為很多9/11私人撥款，不來自LMDC(曼哈頓下城發展公司)，那些私人撥款是透過國際聯合勸募協會及社區信託會捐出，焦點是職業及訓練贈款，他們有錢作其他的服務，但我們已獲小贈款在其他服務上，我們嘗試回到工作訓練，為工人提供支援服務，我們最後得到小量撥款從事托兒服務、家庭服務及獎學金，我們幫助災民獲得短期現金、在災難初期購買食物、及租金。他們需要應急錢應付需要，所以是各種私人撥款拼合在一起，或不同的私人撥款。 不幸地，我們沒有很多的政府撥款，因為政府財政短缺及經濟等問題，唯一有可能的撥款是聯邦撥款的LMDC，但來得很慢，因為所有的注意力都集中在零點，只在第二階段中討論到下城，但他們講的是基本建設、翻新公園、興建機場快線、協助經濟拓展、興建富頓街巴士站令人們從市內其他地方到來、復興下城，興建9/11紀念廣場等設施，這是重建紐約極好的的事項，但政府的9/11聯邦撥款沒有足夠地回應華埠的特殊需要，那是令社區最沮喪的事。 問﹕如要拿到LMDC重建華埠的款項，要做些什麼呢？ 陳﹕現在，大部份的錢已沒有了，只剩下一點點建設費，我們沒有放棄，仍然去開會，提出很多問題，就算麵包碎塊，我們亦想拿，不想放棄。現時仍在拖延的項目是泊車，泊車問題一直干擾著華埠，華埠因為交通阻塞付出很大的代價，因為我們位在兩橋之間，每天經過紐約市、曼哈頓下城、荷蘭隧道的卡車，因為不付華維山路橋費而繞路走，從布碌崙、四大道及曼哈頓橋，都湧來華埠走到下城，這裡沒有橋，炮台隧道不能走卡車，布碌崙又不能過商用車，所以卡車那裡走？他們都經堅尼路，全經過華埠。 華埠要付出代價，但當問題發生時，華埠卻沒有獲得注意，沒有獲得足夠的資源去解決交通阻塞的問題。交通阻塞連帶引起泊車問題，兩者息息相關，除非問題得以關注，這難題困擾華埠已30年， 但這問題可能因為9/11而獲得關注，可能會有一些餘錢解決部份問題。 文化的議題當然是吸引遊客，我們想令華埠成為遊客打開地圖之必遊景點，紐約市民已知道來華埠享用美食及購物，但我們仍要告知紐約市以外人士，令他們覺得華埠是一個必到之地，或遊下城博物院時要到華埠用餐，當他們前來用餐時，可得找泊車位，否則你會說﹕「好了，不要去了，兩小時泊車費太貴了，繼續開車走吧！」所以這是急待應付的全面問題。 問﹕好了，我們暫且放下大問題不談，集中講一講你自己，你為什麼會在華策會工作？你工作了多久？如何開始？這等問題。 陳﹕噢！當回想時，好像是很久以前的事了，讓我看看，我在華策會已23年，我開始到華策會是遊客，遊覽紐約，然後有人告訴我﹕「如你想在華埠工作，其實那裡也有工作，你可查考一下，」那我發現華策會真的正聘請青少年部主任，所以我就申請，他們在電話中面談我，就聘請了我。以後，我就駕駛搬屋卡車，將我的家當運過來，負責青少年計劃，從那時起，……。 問﹕──我們回來講到， 陳﹕是什麼？ 問﹕那一個青少年計劃？在那裡？ 陳﹕外展計劃，那是一個為邊緣青少年而設防止青少年出軌的計劃，以前叫幫派計劃，但不真是幫派，只是很多問題青年，所以我覺得有挑戰，我認為如你能克服紐約，你在那裡都能做，我就是有此想法，想試試看，告訴自己﹕「如辦不到，就拿起我的履歷又走一年，再返回以前的好日子，追尋自己的生活。」但事情一件接著一件，對一個要探討華埠的人是一個好課程，才明白一旦你到了社區，你發覺你可也做很多事，這是令人沮喪，但有挑戰性的事情。我在這裡工作了23年是有原因的。 一旦你從事青少年工作，你明白你可以透過家庭幫助青少年，又透過家庭明白社區，你明白到要為青少年提供良好的環境，甚至要動員整條村才能栽培一個年青人，所以，到最後，漸漸地，我成為華策會的行政總監，負責全盤服務，不再限於青少年。我常說﹕「年青時，你講青少年，年紀大時，你戴上老花眼睛，討論年長者。」但兩者都處理同樣問題，你給需要的人提供服務。 問﹕你在80年代來到華埠，華埠當時是怎樣的？陳﹕當時華埠很小，我想在70年代更小，80年代迅速發展，服務越來越多，華埠再不是限於華埠，華人移民人口在70年代已開始擴展到皇后區， 80年代開始擴展到布碌崙區，布碌崙本來並不顯眼，那是人們不能負擔皇后區所入住的地方，默默地發生，但不立即浮現起來，但我們知道，在80年代尾、90年代的日落公園及U大道華人社區開始顯現，一條條街的店舖、商業、機構、銀行紛紛開業，醫院開始服務華人，但人們仍然以華埠為文化中心，而不是住宅區、不是車衣廠區、不是餐館區，不是洗衣店區，現在幾乎找不到洗衣店，以前我們有洗衣店，是不是？現在洗衣店那裡去了？華埠轉變了，但那時服務行業開始擴展， 因為人們居住那裡，就需要服務，但工作、機會都轉移了，所以你看華埠是文化中心，不單是居住區或多種非主流職業，而人口多樣化，這些多樣化很快向華埠的鄰舍迅速擴展。 問﹕在80年代前的人口特徵是什麼？在80年代後人口又如何？你剛才說有很大的轉變。 陳﹕轉變很大，當人們看見紐約的華裔人口增多，那不限於華埠及鄰近地區，而是整個城市的華人人口增長了，十年翻一翻，但華埠的人口在人口普查中仍然是幾個郵區號碼，10013及10002，或之類，但你將他們放在一起時，人口特徵不會轉變太多，數字仍然是一樣，但人口流轉很大，我記得我讀過一些統計，在華埠活動的華人，五份之二在近五年移民來美，意思是說，華埠是讓人過渡的鄰舍，也有一些人留下長居，但過渡的人不斷搬入搬出，五年前你在華埠一個地點談過話的人，五年後未必在華埠，主流人士或者會說﹕「他們是同一個中國人，他們長得一個樣子。」但事實你知道，新移民一波又一波，變得多樣化，不斷向上，搬入又搬出，新移民搬進來因為華埠是培養人的地方，他們覺得安全，有根，我們做的是給他們羽翼讓他們起飛，希望他們歸來時可協助下一波移民。其實華埠的人口組成沒有改變，但人口轉動大，你知道他們經過了，又搬到別的鄰舍居住，華埠是一個族群中心，人們回來、認同及在這裡購物，這裡的銀行一星期營業七天，是不是？但這不是華人銀行，那是大通銀行，他們也要七天營業，因為他們認識到那潛質，拓大市場。但當你要知道有多少人住在這裡，才知道人數不算多，這活力是華埠所獨有的，因為他的影響力遠超過華埠本身， 但居住人口數字在多年幾乎一樣。 問﹕我們且回去你的個人經驗，你來紐約華埠前，是什麼東西引領你來華埠？ 陳﹕那時我畢業，主修社會工作及組織社區，作為一個專修社區組織人，我覺得沮喪，象牙塔並不足夠，所以我要義務工作，然後我發現芝加哥華埠，那時我就讀芝加哥大學，最近的華埠就是芝加哥華埠，芝加哥華埠主要是兩條街，一些店舖及鄰舍，在很多方面真的很像日落公園。我沒有找到工作，只能義務工作，所以幾個研究生將資源集合在一起，我記得我們得到市立大學給我們八元時薪，在華埠教書四小時，星期六兩小時，星期日兩小時，我們共八人湊錢租一個舖面，開始工作。 但不幸地，學生終歸是學生，畢業後要四散，沒有留下什麼。所以當我社會工作畢業後，便開始找工作，不再玩了，我需要真正工作，華埠沒有工作，所以我在市長辦公室找到一份就業培訓的策劃及估量的工作，他們讓我接觸多樣化的事務及很多少數民族的青少年，但仍然沒有為華人而設的撥款，障礙是，你不是寫計劃書的人，你不知道問題在那裡，而且那裡的華埠仍然沒有工作機會。以致我在紐約華埠度假時提及這事，他們告訴我紐約華埠有工作，你就要做你想做的事了，所以我說要看看，然後就出任。這是我如何開始，及我如何入行的經過。 但是當然，在求學時，我心內明白到社區人士需要幫助， 明白移民的需要，他們真的沒有語言的能力，沒有支援，較為不幸的一群不知道在那裡尋求協助，所以需要一些從裡面而來的有力協助，學校的栽培引導我這年青人，同時給我機會遇上紐約華埠，然後我明白有很多事情可以做。 問﹕你想幫助社區，是否因為你的家庭背景？你是家庭是否一個典型的移民家庭？或你來自一個完全不同的背景？請告訴我一些你背景的資料。 陳﹕我來自很不同的背景，可以說我來自較優勢的背景，爸爸是工程師，中產，我會說是中產，中上背景，所有華裔中產家庭都希望子女成為工程師或醫生，但我是那些不喜歡化學的人，如果不唸化學，不能有太多職業選擇，不能當工程師或醫生，所以我在實踐家人寄望及實現自己的興趣兩者之間猶豫不決。 不久，我發現對社會科學有濃厚興趣，然後，當然，作為典型華人，我得考慮，從事社會科學不能生活，後來，我在大學唸社會科學及文科，又唸經濟培養理性及商業頭腦。爸爸是一個受過高等教育的人，他問我﹕「唸經濟科如得博士學位，你出來教書﹔如有學士學位，你到銀行當出納員，你想做那一個？」 我時時心存這問題，有趣的是，我越多讀經濟學，就明白到經濟有宏觀的金融，在宏觀經濟，我們處理基本建設──社區，然後我對未開發的社區產生興趣，如第三世界，世界銀行、聯合國之類， 但那是不能實現的願望。有趣的是，機會來了，我撞入華埠的社區，我明白到我不需要看見別處的第三世界社區，在我家的後園就有一個第三世界社區，所以我在華埠當義工，嘗試替人搭橋舖路，最後替了自己的興趣搭了橋，在自己可發揮的地方著了陸，我的技考及興趣已磨練了廿多年，成為我的一部份。 問﹕最後一個問題，你在那裡出生？在那裡成長？ 陳﹕非常小時候，我在中國，在上海出生，幾個月大時，我的爸媽抱了我到香港。香港是我的成長地，我在香港讀書，直到高中，到美國時讀十二年級，高中的最後一年。在這以前，我的青少年期、失落期、朋輩等，都在香港。 問﹕你如何到美國？有什麼驅動你到來？ 陳﹕嗯，驅動力。 問﹕你自己來的？ 陳﹕是的，大概是。那時，我的爸媽是非常聰明的、高教育水平的人，他們明白我來時如果是年青小夥子，就要入伍到越南打仗，他們不想我服役，如我不馬上成為永久居民或公民，而先當學生讀書，就可以延遲服役，所以我以學生身份來，同時，我爸爸因商務可以時時來美。所以我先留學，當徵役期完畢，我就轉換身份成為公民，所以我的背景是從移民開始，我認為我是較幸運的移民，有權選擇，也可以說，懂得如何操縱這制度。 問﹕棒極了，錄音完畢，很好。 [訪問完畢] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource David Chan 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. unknown Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. transcription Media Type The media type of this item. interview Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown Description An account of the resource New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time. Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident. To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day. Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero. Chinatown Interview Chinatown Interview: Interviewee Alice Young Chinatown Interview: Interviewer Val Wang Chinatown Interview: Date 2004-07-01 Chinatown Interview: Language English Chinatown Interview: Occupation middle school principal Chinatown Interview: Interview (en) Q: We’re at PS 131 with Alice Young. So, can you first introduce yourself and say your name and---say your name. Young: Okay. My name is Alice Young. Q: And, can you talk a little bit about where you were born and where you grew up, where you spent your first few years? Young: Sure. Well, actually, I was born in Manhattan because, that was, in Manhattan there was only, the only Chinese obstetrician-gynecologist, so I was born on 15th Street, but we lived in Brooklyn, and I grew up in Brooklyn, I lived in Brooklyn all my life. And I went to school there, elementary school, all the way through college. I just stayed---I’m really a Brooklyn girl. (laughs) Q: So where in Brooklyn were you? Young: Actually, I grew up in a neighborhood called Gravesend, and my father owned a laundry that picked up laundry from all the Chinese hand laundries, so he had a factory where they pressed and ironed and folded shirts, and he had a 24-hour crew that worked, and we lived, you know, some of my friends who lived behind the hand laundry, we lived on top of the laundry, with all the machines running, all the presses and a lot of noise. So that’s where I grew up, until I got married. Q: And what was that neighborhood like? Young: Well, it’s called Gravesend, and it’s an Italian neighborhood. Actually, I lived on MacDonald Avenue, and that was where the F train runs, and so it was an elevated train with a lot of noise. And I remember when I was in college someone had asked me for my phone number and I gave the number to someone, and when he called me, he thought I gave him like a phony number that was in a subway station. (laughs) So I lived there until I was twenty-three. Q: Okay, so do you know much about your parents’ past and how they came to the States? Young: Yeah, sure, I know a lot. Actually, when, my father came to this country when he was thirteen with his uncle and with his father, and at that time they let only men come to this country, and my father’s uncle, which I guess his father’s brother owned a laundry up in Scarsdale, so they settled there for a little bit, and then they, because they just lacked the connection to Chinese people, they decided to come to New York City, to Chinatown, and so in Chinatown there was, there’s always an apartment or an association, so there was a young apartment for all people with a young family. So he came and he lived there, and it was right on Bayard Street. And then my grandfather opened up a laundry in Brooklyn on King’s Highway. And I think my father always told us that he liked to be away from the Chinese people, so he always just to move out of Chinatown. So that’s why we always stayed in Brooklyn and we just never lived there. So they opened up a laundry there---he said he was about fifteen. And that’s where they stayed, and my grandfather, you know, the whole concept was they come here, they make money and they save money, and they send money back to China, and then one day they would go back to China. So, my grandfather got sick here, and he wanted to go back home, because that’s where his homeland was, so he went back, and then my father and my uncle stayed here, and it was funny because then my father approached the age of, I guess, eighteen, and they told him he had to go back and get married. So then he went back, and he got married, and like, my oldest brother was born, and then he left them there, and his---came back here, he worked, and about, like, maybe eight years later he went back to China, and that’s when my next brother was born. (laughs) So every time he went back and forth, he had a child. And then in 1949, when the communists came, were starting to come into China and go into Nanking, which is the southern capital, he decided, he went to see a lawyer and he decided that he would bring his family, my brothers and my mom to America. And that, the idea of saving money and living in China forever, it just---that was the end of it. So he knew that everyone should come here, ‘cause he just didn’t want to be in China anymore. So that’s how, that’s why, that’s when they came here. Q: Okay. Was it hard for them to come over at that point? In terms of passports, and--- Young: Yeah, well, you know, he had to get, well, actually, you know, because he had a laundry in a very kind of, I guess it was a well-to-do area, and so it was doctors and lawyers were his customers, and he had a lawyer who brought shirts into him regularly, and he started asking him, you know, “How do I bring my family here, I have family---“ so he took all his papers, and, you know, gave it to the lawyer and he did what he needed to do. So in 1949 my father went back to China, and then he just started all the paperwork to bring his family here. And so the joke in my family is, because I was born in 1950, was that I was made in Hong Kong, because when my mother came here in May of 1950, she was pregnant, and it was with me, so I was like the first child, you know, their child born here. Q: So how many of, total children were there? Young: There are five of us. I have three brothers, and they’re older than I am, and they were all born in, two in China, one in Hong Kong. And then when we came here, when they came here, I was born. And then I have a younger sister. Q: And so you all five grew up in then, in Gravesend? In Brooklyn? Young: Yeah, in Brooklyn, but don’t forget there was such a big age span between my oldest brother, I mean, he could probably be my, almost my father. So he was, when he came here he was already married. Q: Okay, so he came with his wife? Young: Well, they came first without his wife, and then the immigration laws were such that he came first, and then he applied for his wife to come here, but they were already married in China. Q: Okay, so at that point, so what was it like growing up in the fifties? You said it was a very Italian neighborhood? Young: Yeah, it was a very Italian neighborhood. My sister and I were the only Chinese family, Chinese children in the entire school. It was, I don’t know, I don’t remember much of my elementary school years. It’s such a---my parents were very strict, and, you know, I always had to take care of my sister, who’s just thirteen months younger than I am. And the mentality was like, you don’t need any friends, and you don’t go anywhere after school, and you just come back home and you do your homework, and you do, you know---so it was just a lot of going to school, coming home, going to school, coming home. And then, my father was, I mean, I don’t know. Now I can understand why he did what he did, but we didn’t have a TV at home. He insisted that we speak Chinese at home, and no English, and there wasn’t any, there wasn’t games, we always did homework, we wrote, and then he had the laundry, so after we finished our homework we had to go downstairs and help him in the laundry. So his, I guess his philosophy was that he always, my mother used to say, “Well, how are they ever going to learn English, and they don’t know anything.” And so he says, “Don’t be afraid that we don’t learn English.” He was just so afraid that we would lose the Chinese, and the culture and everything, so, you know, he just kept, at home, everything was Chinese, and we weren’t allowed to speak English at all. And I remember getting, in the third grade we really bugged my parents, and finally he said we could have a TV. So I remember one day, I was in the third grade, and he came and picked us up after school, he drove us to Sears, and we bought, like, our first television. And then when it was delivered, I still remember it was on a Friday afternoon, and we just, like, we had a living room, but it wasn’t you know, we had a couch and a table. And so we had a spot for the TV, and we took two, like, I don’t know, folding chairs. And my sister and I just sat there, and they delivered the TV, we plugged it in, and it was on Channel 7, and American Bandstand was on, and I really didn’t even know what it, how that TV functioned, so we just turned it on. And I didn’t even know that we could change it to different channels and stuff, so every day we sat and we watched American Bandstand, and I would go to school and tell my friends that you know, I have a TV, and they would say, “Oh good, did you see this and that?” and you know, all these shows, and I said, “What are you talking about?” So then we decided to play around with the knobs and we discovered that, you know, we could change it and watch something else. And when I think back, I say, “Boy, we were really sheltered..” Q: You didn’t have any friends? Young: Not really. I mean, you know, my parents didn’t let us go to each others’ homes, and certainly they didn’t let anyone come into our house, and they were always working downstairs and we were upstairs, and we would watch TV or read or, you know, fight. (laughs) My sister and I. And there were times, like, even at school, when we had to do, I remember we had to do committee reports, and plus we, after school, where we have to come together and do a research project. And I had to really, really convince my father that it was legit, you know, that we were--- And then he would drive us to their homes and pick us up, and we did do that, you know. Q: For school. Young: For school. Yeah. Q: So what dialect of Chinese do you speak? Young: We speak Cantonese. Q: Okay. And where was your family from? Young: Well, they’re from, at that time we call it Canton, but now it’s Guangzhou. And it’s a southern province, and I guess, provincial, the province would be Hoksan. So we spoke Hoksanese, I guess, you know. And every Sunday we went to Chinese school, so that was a real ritual. Q: Where was that? Young: In Chinatown. And, you know, it’s not like today where you could get groceries and things like that, and Chinese vegetables in Brooklyn, so every Sunday was a trip we, like, ate lunch, after lunch we came out, we had a one o’clock class, Chinese school from one o’clock to three, and then my parents picked us up, and there was an arcade, he would give us a quarter. In those days, a quarter took us a long way. So we went to the arcades, and then my mother loved the Chinese opera, you know, the Chinese movies. So we would go to that, and then we’d eat dinner, and then we’d get home like around eight o’clock. So that was like, our Sunday. Q: Every Sunday growing up. Young: Every Sunday, yeah, until we, I guess until we got into Junior High School, we would do that, ‘cause that’s when I stopped going to Chinese school. Q: So did you have much contact with the Chinese community other than---- Young: No, not really. You know, just with our families, and we didn’t do much in Chinatown, except go see movies and go to Chinese school, and that was it. And eat dinner. Q: Did you have extended family here? You said your dad’s uncle was here. Did they have family also here? Young: Well, actually yeah, well, they all went back to China and they passed away, but my father had his brother here, so it was my uncle and my aunt, and cousins, and it was quite a, you know, extended family, but I think smaller based on other people’s families. Q: Did you see them a lot? Young: We would see each other on Sundays, when we’d go to Chinatown, there was a, 22 Mott Street was a grocery store, and our whole family, most of us did live in Brooklyn, but that’s where we would do our shopping, and you know, my father would drive, and he’d pick up like tons of groceries, because the laundry that he ran, there were eight hour shifts, and most Chinese establishments always serve lunch and dinner, so my mother cooked for like, fifty people, and made lunch, and made dinner, and then the next shift comes, would come in, and then they’d hire someone who would cook, like, make a meal, around, like, two in the morning that was served. So she was like constantly cooking these huge meals and it was like about fifty people eating with us, in the laundry. Q: So, how big was the laundry? Young: It was huge. It was huge. It was like, maybe, it was bigger than this entire library. Because there were presses, five pressing machines, and then there was about thirteen ironing, fourteen ironing tables, and men would iron and fold, and we would box up all the shirts and then send it out to the laundry, the local laundries. Q: So where were these workers all from? Young: Mostly from Chinatown. And they would take the train, the subway. They worked very long hours, I mean, the shift was from eight o’clock to eight o’clock. And then the night shift was from eight in the evening until eight the next morning. And most of the times it was six days a week, you know. We worked hard. Q: You said your dad sort of wanted to stay apart from Chinatown. Did he ever tell you why? Young: Well, I think he wanted us to just grow up away from, I don’t know, he just felt that he didn’t want us to be under the influence of, I don’t know, there weren’t many gangs like there were in the ‘70s and ‘80s, but he just felt, I don’t know why, he said, he used to say this funny expression. He says when the Chinese people move into the neighborhood, it’s time to move out. (laughs) I don’t know why. He just, I don’t know, he just felt that he wanted us, although we spoke English at home, he wanted us to grow up in a more residential, not like a place filled with, you know, restaurants and small apartments. We had an apartment that was pretty spread out, and we each had a room, so it was nice. Q: So, I guess, fast-forwarding up till you went to college. Young: Yeah, I went to college. I went to college at Brooklyn College, and you know, my father would deliver shirts to all these laundries, and he always, always, wherever he went, I don’t know what it was, but he would always drive by Brooklyn College, this huge campus with the clock and the steeple, and he would say to me, and my sister, and he would say, “You know, this is where you’re going to go to college. This is a college.” And it just, in the quadrangle, I could see it, down Bedford Avenue into the College. And so somehow whenever he would deliver his shirts he wound up on Bedford Avenue by Brooklyn College. And I guess it was like so ingrained in us, that when we, when I applied to go to college, I actually didn’t apply to many colleges. And he would never let us go away. And we didn’t even think about it. So I went to college. Went to Brooklyn College. And then, when I began to drive and I learned how to drive, I said, “Now, how did he get here?” Like, I didn’t even know. It looked so pretty. It didn’t look like it was in the middle of Brooklyn. So, and I went with my sister, so of course my sister went to Brooklyn College also. So it was kind of like, the expectation is we would go to college, and I guess I was lucky to have a father who would allow us to go to college, ‘cause a lot of my friends in high school---and as I got older I kind of developed friends with, you know, some of my friends became, or they were customers of my fathers. So I started having, like, a circle of Chinese friends, basically from the laundries that I would go with my father to collect shirts. And they were our age, and we somehow or other got together. And a lot of the girls didn’t go to college, because the parents felt that they were saving money for their sons, or that girls just shouldn’t go to college. So from my high school friends who were Chinese, I think my sister and I were one of the few kids who went to college. Q: Why do you think your dad was different in that way? Young: Because he really believed in education. He really said that you have to go to school and you have to go to college, whether you were a boy or a girl. And I think he always instilled in us that we should do well in school, and that every generation should do better, and that no one should be working like a horse or a cow like he did for fifteen hours a day. So we just always, just always, like did well, and we did the best we could. But his whole, the way he brought us up was that we had to go to school, this is America, this is why we’re here. You know, and we did, we did, we worked hard, and it was like, difficult, because they couldn’t help us, and they didn’t speak much English, and I remember we had to do a report, and we needed an encyclopedia, and he wouldn’t let us go to the library, right? And he had no idea---I couldn’t even explain to him what an encyclopedia was. I just told him it was a book, we need this, we need these books, we have to get to the library. And so his thing was, “I’ll buy it for it. So, where do we go?” So we went into a bookstore, and we asked them for, we asked the guy in the bookstore for a set of encyclopedia, he looked at us like, “You’re nuts. You can’t buy it here.” So this one customer walked in, and he goes, “You know what, I have a whole set of the Book of Knowledge, but I’m missing ‘L.’ Do you want to buy it?” So my father bought it for us. And they were like, torn apart, and the threads were hanging out of the spine. So he did buy it for us, so we used that, the Book of Knowledge. And then, the lawyer who helped bring my whole family over, he did a lot, he wrote checks for my father. He did all the bills. So every Saturday we would go to see him and bring pastries and bring cakes and bring all the newspapers, and my father paid for it. Just gave it to him, like it was a Saturday ritual. And we would get his laundry, and then do his laundry, bring it back all pressed and folded and everything. And so we asked him, and he goes, “Oh, you want, is that what you want?” And I said, “Yes.” So then my father spent like three hundred dollars. In those days, it was a lot of money. And he bought the whole World Book Encyclopedia, with the bookshelf, with everything single year we additioned that, you know? So I think when we were in the fifth grade, we had our own set of encyclopedia. So, he tried to get us everything we wanted. It was hard, because he didn’t know any English. I remember I needed a stapler. And I really didn’t know, like, where to get it. So he drove from Brooklyn all the way to Chinatown to Waku bookstore on Mott Street. And we got this Swingline stapler. I still have it. You know, so, it was kind of interesting, growing up. Frustrating. Q: Yeah? Young: Yeah. Q: So by the, so you had some friends, then, starting in high school. Young: Yeah, we had some friends starting in high school, then when we went into college, you know, we kind of went our own way, a lot of the girls didn’t want to go to college, and then in college, I developed this circle of friends, but basically they were Chinese. I joined the Chinese club. And then the year after that, my sister came. So we did, and then we kind of just hung out, and it was a lot---in fact, I still have friends I went to college with, and we’ve just stayed close. Q: So were most of your friends there of a similar background to you? Young: Yeah, yeah, pretty much. And their families basically owned laundries, and growing up the same way, and being first born in the United States, pretty much. Q: Were there a lot of people like that at Brooklyn College at that time? Young: Yeah, basically, yeah. Q: So when you were in college, what did you major in? Young: I majored in education. I always knew I wanted to teach. I had a nephew who, he is my brother’s son. He had problems and, you know, they separated when my nephew was about maybe two years old, and he lived in our house and he stayed with us. And I just enjoyed taking care of him. And I would take him, I think I was in high school, and I would take him to school, drop him off or pick him up on my way to class. Maybe the first year of college. And it’s funny, like I would see his teachers, and like, young teachers, and they looked so nice and they’d have their cars and everything, and I just liked taking care of him. So I wanted to teach, I always wanted to, so I just majored in education, and then I went through the four years, and did my student teaching, and I enjoyed it. I always---and then, after I graduated, I graduated in ’71, and at that time, there was a surplus of teachers. So I got a job working in a daycare center, with three and a half year olds. That wasn’t so much fun. They slept, they had accidents, they woke up, they cried. So I did that for like, half a year. And then I substituted, in, it was a District 1 school, and then, in, I started teaching in ’72, and then, I’ve been in school since then. Q: So did you live with your parents all the way through college? Young: Yeah, we stayed home, I lived with my parents, I got married in 1973, and that’s when I moved out. A real exciting life. (laughs) Really exciting. Q: So, who did you get married to? Young: My husband, David, he’s actually, I don’t know, I guess he’s imported. He grew up in Rochester, and his, I went to college with his cousin, and that’s how I met him, when he came to New York City he was living---he is a teacher also, and he came to New York City and he was looking for a teaching job. And then I met him through his cousin, who I went to college with, and so that--- Q: And where did you move? Young: (laughs) Really far away. About three blocks away from where my parents lived. And so then we lived there for awhile, and then my parents sold the building where the laundry is, and my, my younger sister was living at home also, and then they, for the first time ever they rented an apartment, ‘cause my father always owned the building that we lived in. And he always promoted being in his own business and being his own boss, and owning the place that you live. So it was the first time ever that they rented an apartment and they paid rent. So they did that for three years with my sister. Q: Was that in your neighborhood? Young: No, they ventured out to like about maybe two miles away. And they did that for three years, and the rent started to go up and up and my father just couldn’t stand it, so my sister said, proposed the idea that we look for a house and we buy a house together. And I said, sure, that’s fine, you know. So she found this huge 16-room two family house, so we bought that, and that’s where we live now, and so she and my parents lived on the first---on the second floor, and David and I lived on the first floor. Q: And where was that? Young: And so, that’s in the, I guess the, Marine Park area. So it’s still in Brooklyn, and we still live there now, and I have two kids. My parents passed away, and my sister got married, and then she bought her own house, so now we kind of, I bought the house from her, I paid her for her share, so we own the house now. Q: And you’ve been there since? Young: Since 1978. I’m not a real mover. I don’t experiment, move out of my surroundings. But I enjoy living in Brooklyn. It’s kind of quiet, and, but the---it’s convenient. And, but, now, when I was teaching, I taught on the Lower East Side, and in the seventies, the city was really having financial difficulties, and then I was laid off, and then I ended up teaching on Staten Island, and then I taught in Brooklyn, and then I had my son, and I taught in Crown Heights. It was a really tough area. A lot of West Indian students, and it’s just a very poor area. You know, I had a good time, I had a lot of fun teaching there, but when I came back, after having my son, it was like, God, what a ---it was a struggle. You know, it’s a struggle, because kids are needy. And in the evenings I always taught in Chinatown. I taught adults English, so I did that for like 15 years. So every day I was teaching in Brooklyn, and on Tuesdays and Thursdays, I would be out in Chinatown teaching English to adults from 7:30 to 10. And just being part of that Chinatown community with the adults, my Chinese got better, although I was teaching English, but I got a chance to use my Chinese and everything. And I thought about coming to Chinatown to teach, so that’s when I moved into, in 1985, I taught at PS 1, and I taught fifth and sixth grade there for eleven years, before I came here to be a principal. Q: Okay. So were you always teaching elementary school? Young: Yeah. I was an elementary, by license I’m an elementary school teacher. And I always taught fifth and sixth grade. Q: And then, when did you come here? Young: In 1996. Q: Okay that was after PS 1. Young: Yeah, it was after PS 1. When I taught at PS 1, my principal was really, I learned a lot from her, she was like my mentor, and she would say, “Why don’t you become a principal?” And she’s not Chinese, and she said that the community needs someone who is Chinese, you could be---she always believed in being role models and having role models for children, and she said that, “Why don’t you go to school, go back to school, get your license and be a principal and to say, you could be someone who could be a role model for children, to help the parents,” and that’s when I decided that, you know, that’s nice, because I see how Chinese parents come into the school, and just the fact that they have a teacher who is Chinese, they feel like they could speak to and, you know, can open up to and relate to, and just that initial meeting is so much conducive to, you know, speaking and opening, and where they don’t have that openness when someone is non-Asian, you know, it’s just that relaxing, kind of soothing effect. So then I went to school in the evenings, and got a CCNY [City College of New York] grant that was funded by CCNY and the Department of Ed, and I went for one year and got my certification to be a principal. And then they were looking for someone---it was the year when elementary school got capped at grade six, and grade six was part of the middle school, so it was six, seven, eight. So the superintendent asked me to come here to be the assistant principal, and I was very nervous, because I never, I was never ever in a middle school. Ever. I never taught in one. And he just said, just do it, he wants the middle school to become like an elementary, closer to an elementary school model, where kids are nurtured, it’s not like a junior high school. So I came here in ’96 as an assistant principal, and then the principal was also new here, and they had a lot of issues, and so he asked me to become principal in April of that same year, school year. And then I was the principal here from ’97, April ’97 until June 2003. Q: And, how did you find it different to be principal rather than teaching? Young: It was, you know, I stepped out of the classroom into this huge place of 1400 children, 120 teachers, it was really, I learned by doing, you know? And I remember asking, other principals, asking my principal for help. I would call her every night with all these issues. But it was, you have to learn on your feet, and you have to think fast, and a lot of quick decisions, and I think what, you know, my principal told me was, “Always put the kids in front of you, and when you make your decision, always make sure the kids are in front of you, and it’s a decision that will be the best for the kids.” Because, you know, this school was a very traditional school, with very, I would say, not the best teaching practice, and so, in order to turn a school around to move a school, is going to upset a lot of the adults and a lot of the teachers. But every decision I made, I was able to say, you know, the rationale is, how would that make it better for the kids? And so it became a lot easier, and I think if you have a philosophy, or a goal, or just a picture of how you want the classrooms to look and how you want the kids to learn, it makes it that much easier. But of course, a lot of lives were upset, a lot of changes in the school, no one likes change. But, you know, sometimes it has to happen. Q: What’s a traditional school versus a (?) school. Young: Okay, well, you know, traditional in teaching would be the way I went to school. You know, everybody staying in rows, the teacher is very frontal teaching, the teacher lectures, you read a story, answer the questions. There is kind of, very little conversation among the kids and the teachers, and the teacher is always there. The teacher is teaching. And I’m much more progressive in my thinking, and I think the teacher should be facilitating, the teacher should be helping kids learn how to ask questions, and when children ask the questions, then they should be, like, we can guide them and show them how to find the answers, and after that just to kind of gain that knowledge, so it’s not always from me, it’s not always that I know everything, where kids will ask questions and do their own research. And I really believe in, you know, learning outside of the building, and going to museums and going to cultural institutions, having experts and speakers come in. So that would be a different kind of teaching. So with that belief and being the principal of this school, where kids were all in rows and lots of frontal teaching, and using one textbook, you know, it was hard, it was hard to make those changes, but you know, I think we have, and kids really enjoy learning now. Q: And can you talk a little bit about this school, just the makeup of the students? Young: Oh, well, sure. This school has about 87 or 88 percent of the children are Asian. 96 or 91, maybe I think it’s 96 percent of the kids are entitled to free lunch, so that means we’re a Title One school, and I guess it’s the poverty level, the threshold, so 91 percent of our kids qualify for that. But we have one of the highest attendance rates in this district. Ninety-seven percent attendance. Fifteen percent of our kids are African-American, Latino. And we have, ten percent of our kids are special education children. Over half of our children are English language learners, which means that they haven’t gained the English proficiency, they haven’t passed the English proficiency tests, so they just need that extra help and they are mandated to take ESL. There’s a bilingual program, about 120 to 150 kids in each grade, so where they’re instructed in their native language in some content area. So most of the time we teach the social studies and the math in Chinese, and our children who are in the bilingual classes and get instructed in Chinese and math, out-perform our Gen Ed kids, because they come with such skills in math, but they’re just missing the English, so we basically teach them in Chinese, you know, math concepts in Chinese. Q: So what kind of challenges does that, other kinds of challenges does that pose, just having a lot of kids who don’t speak English, or whose parents don’t speak English? Young: Yeah, well, you know, the challenge is to get them to, to motivate them to learn English. We also, you know, teach native language arts, and we try, the hope is to gain the English but also maintain some kind of the Chinese reading a writing and listening and speaking, and to motivate them to not get discouraged because, you know, kids see that they’re so behind and it’s so hard to catch up, and so of course we don’t want them to drop out. And they’re at an age where they come and they’re in the eighth grade and they’re thirteen, fourteen years old,---you know, there’s a lot of distractions. So we want to make sure that we can motivate them to stay. So, that’s why we, you know, I brought in, like a full arts program. We really have wonderful teachers and this way that would maybe make them want to read and write and talk about the dance, about the art, or about theater. You know, we have a chess club, we do photography, so we try to keep them going. We’re not always successful, but basically kids stay, they graduate, and hopefully they get into a good---a high school that fits their needs. Q: How much contact do you have with their parents? Young: Um, you know, it’s hard to get---that’s one of our struggles, is to get parents to really participate and involved in the school. I think it’s because it’s a very Western concept of coming to school and having a voice and being welcomed, and you know, especially with our parents in Chinatown, they work so much, and they just----and culturally, they feel that, you know, my children are at your school, you’re the experts, you’re the educational experts, and now I’m going to go to work and you do what you need to do. So they don’t even know that the Western concept is that we want parent engagement, we want parent involvement. So it is really very difficult to get parents to be here, even at PTA meetings, or fundraising, ‘cause our parents are very, you know, they’re poor, and they need to be at work all the time. But I know that this year the mayor put in a new position called “parent coordinator,” and they’re exclusively to promote parent engagement. And I know that this school has really doubled or tripled the number of parents who come to meetings, because the parent coordinator calls them up, lets them know, ‘please come to this meeting,’ so someone who, 100 percent of her time is to canvas parents, survey parents, find out what they need, and I think that was a very smart thing, one of the real positive things of this reform of Mayor Bloomberg’s, so that’s really good. Q: Do you ever feel you could---when those parents come in to talk to you, they feel more comfortable--- Young: Yeah. Q: ---Like there’s a way that, in which there is still some kind of gap, because you grew up here, and they’re---- Young: Yeah, of course there’s a gap, and then, I --- now that the population of this area, and we have a lot of Fujianese parents coming in. So most of the times I would say that I cannot communicate with them, because they speak Mandarin and they speak Fukanese, and I only speak Cantonese, so I find like this gap now, it’s, it’s bigger. But we depend on translation so much, and we depend on kids translating---I mean, sometimes for me to understand a child, we have to go through like three people before we get the message, and I’m sure some of it gets lost. So, it’s hard, but I think it’s just the warmth of the school, and now that the culture of the school is different, so I guess it makes it different, and of course with the parent coordinator piece, that you know, it really just makes it better. Q: What other changes have you seen here? Young: In the school? Q: Yeah. Since ’96, till you left last year. Young: Well, definitely the way children are learning, ‘cause I’m not a one-textbook person, so there are just---our rooms are filled with books on every level. I really believe that we have to find out where the child is and find out what the child likes and just make every effort to have those kind of books and have those things for the kids. You know, kids are learning together, there’s more inquiry-based, and kids are asking questions. And when I first came here, the school was quiet. You didn’t hear kids talk, because the teachers had them just in rows, and the teacher was always talking. But now, you know, the kids are happy, and the kids are talking to one another, and we do small book groups, and we do literature circles, and you know, kids are learning. And I bring in an awful diverse group of people to come in and work with them, especially in the arts. We always have, we have a good connection with MoCA, we have a connection with Elders Share the Arts, the Asian-American Arts Center, and so we have a lot of different collaboratives, and you know, LeRoy Street, across the street, the architects, if you look at our corner on Hester and Eldridge---so we did a two-year project with LeRoy Street Architects. Thirty children went across the street, they have a little storefront classroom, and their project was to change the corner plot, a little piece of land, into a place that will make the neighborhood, or make that little corner more appealing and appeasing to the public. So they really did a great job, and they studied that space as an architect, so they studied the light in that area, the noise, the different kinds of noise, the amount of people who pass by, and they really looked at that little corner plot, and they came up with an idea of how do we make it a place where it’s appealing and nice and attractive. So they came up with this whole concept of wishing wells. And so they built little, they built wishing wells with mosaic tile. So if you look at the corner, I don’t know if you’ve seen it, but look at it, and then they did ceramic tiles, and put that up on the wall. And this was a two-year project, and then they did all these metal sculptures of like, wind chimers, so they’re all up, it’s just like, ten-feet high, and they did it. And last week we had an opening. So it was really nice. So that’s the kind of learning, that’s how kids should be learning. And it was hard because, when you have parents who are not used to that kind of instruction, kids who come from China and not learning that way. So we really had to go at it slowly. I remember in the beginning of the year, when I first came here and we had no textbooks, and we just had regular books, you know. So parents were really, got upset, and said, “God, there’s no books, where’s the textbooks, in Wagner Junior High School they have books.” And I said, “You know what?” and I tried to, with translators, and school board members came and supported me, and I said to them, you know, if you go to a bookstore and you want to learn about, you know, World War II, you’re never going to get a textbook that gives you three pages or two paragraphs about World War II, you would get a book that says, you know, Battles of World War II, or Presidents During World War II, and that’s the way your kids should learn, cause textbooks are just companies making money off schools. So, slowly, you know, it started to change, and now parents don’t question it, they just know that that’s the way to learn. They used to not want to go on trips to museums and stuff, and they’d say to me, the parents would say, “Well, you know, they went there last year.” And even the way the trip in Chinese, is like, to play, or---so I said, “Well, that’s okay, we’re going, and this is what we’re doing, here’s the worksheet, this is what we’re going to look at, and your kids are learning earth science, and we’re going to the museum and they’re going to look at the rocks.” And so they get it now, so I don’t have any more flack about leaving the building or going to visit somewhere. So that’s good. Q: You sound like you do have a very progressive outlook. How did they develop, ‘cause it sounds like growing up you had a pretty traditional schooling. Young: Yeah, and actually, I credit that to teaching in District Two. ‘Cause when I was a teacher here, Anthony Alvarado was the superintendent, and he really let teachers leave the classroom and learn from one another, visit each other’s teaching, and read. And so we read a lot of professional books, we talked a lot, we looked at different methods of teaching and how kids should be learning, and we did a lot of research, and I think that made me kind of look at what teaching was all about, and not just accept----‘cause when I was teaching in Brooklyn, you know, they hand you the books and those are the books you use, and there was never any conversation, I never went to a workshop, I never left the building. The principal never engaged us in reading a book and talking about, or about how we teach. We didn’t visit each other. But when I came to District Two, that’s what we did. And then I just realized that, you know, that’s why I say, kind of, my school years are like kind of a blur. It was just not exciting. I did it because I had to do it, and I knew my father would be pissed if I didn’t bring home good grades. And I wasn’t allowed to go anywhere, so I might as well stay home and read. And then, you know, like, once I started teaching I really learned to be a better reader. I really was able to kind of question what I read, and talked about what I read, and it was really so hard for me when I would take a workshop and say well, you know, think about the book, reflect on it, think about your life, and it was hard for me to do that, because I was never allowed to ask questions or say what I felt or what I thought. So I had to learn to do that. And I think in that process of learning how to do that, I kind of looked at teaching in a different way, ‘cause that’s not how I learned. And I just, you know, I mean, I won’t know the answer, but I was wondering if I had learned that way, you know, where would I be, and what would I be thinking, you know? Yeah, so I didn’t know that, how it would pan out if I had a different kind of school life. [interrupted by cell phone] How much longer are we going to do this? Q: Well, (?) just, maybe a little bit about the day--- Young: Sure. Q: ---what happened? Young: Yeah, it’s still very much in my memory. Well, I guess the day started out pretty normal, and I knew that at 9:30 I had to be at the Board of Ed, because I had written a letter of poor performance about a teacher and put it in his file, and he was filing a grievance and I had to go and testify. So I had to be there by 9:30--- [END TAPE ONE, SIDE ONE; BEGIN TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO] ---so I had my day, you know, like in the morning the kids came, and then I knew I was going to leave about nine o’clock, to take the F train down to Jay Street. So it was about ten to nine, all the kids were in class, they all came up and school started at 8:40, so I was in my office with my assistant principal, who is now the current principal, Jane. And I heard this like, big bang. And like this big boom, I never heard such a noise, and Jane said to me, “Is that thunder?” So I said, “I hope so.” It sounded like it. I never heard something like that. Then the security officer came into my office, and he said, “They just bombed the World Trade Center.” So I said, “Oh, my God.” So I went, since we’re so close, the first thing I did was, you know, I called the district office, to find out if they knew anything. So I called Roy Moskowitz, who was the legal counsel, and I said, “Roy, what happened, did you hear that they, that the World Trade Center was bombed?” And he said, “No,” he said, “There was an accident, it was a small plane that hit the tower.” And so I said, “Okay,” I said, “That’s fine, as long as like, nothing terrible, I mean, okay, it was a terrible thing that a small plane, as soon as I got off the phone and not (?) So then, Jane came running into the office again, and she says, “Alice, people are dying. You have to come outside. You have to see this.” And ‘cause we can see the towers from our school yard. So I ran outside, and I was with the school secretary, and I just saw this gaping hole and the tower was just all smoke billowing out, and we’restanding there, and all of a sudden, it just---the second tower just like exploded. But we didn’t see it, we were standing on the sidewalk and we didn’t see a plane hit it. I didn’t know what happened. I thought something happened, and ignited something in the other building. So we just like stood there, and I just, with Joyce, my secretary, and we kind of like hugged each other. I said, “Oh my god, what is going on?” So we went back inside, and by that time, kids have seen it, ‘cause the kids in the south side of the building, right by the bridge can see it. So I got on the loudspeaker, and I said, “You know, there’s been an accident, something, there’s been an accident, and so, everything’s okay, we’re just going to go on as usual, just, everything’s alright.” And then we heard on the news that there’s another plane that was hijacked and was headed toward the White House, and it was just like getting a little kind of crazy. And then we all, with the assistant principals, we walked through the building just to make sure everything was calm. And I just heard a lot of screaming in one classroom, so I went into the classroom, and they looked, and they saw the tower just collapsing. It was just like, horrible. So then we just----I got on the loudspeaker again, ‘cause I didn’t, first of all, I didn’t even know what was going on. And I said that, you know, “I know some of you have seen the towers collapsing, but let’s stay calm, and you know, we’re safe, we’re fine, we’re just going to be in the building.” And then I got a call from the district office and they said that, don’t let any kids go home unless their parents pick them up. And I said, “Well, that’s great, how will they know to pick them up?” So we have a school board member in the building, who’s really great, and she called the Chinese radio, and to ask them to make an announcement that if your child is in school, please try to get to school as soon as you can and just pick up your children. And they’re not going to be dismissed until you pick them up. So then, kids were, parents were coming, and picking them up, but I didn’t want to make an announcement and say, you know, John Lee, your mother is here, come to the main office. So we decided that we would just go up stairs and get the child, and just start, you know. And then I took classes of kids and we called---I took them to the office, and teachers would take them to one of the offices where there’s a phone and then call, and then by a quarter to seven, I think, every child was picked up. But it was like quite an experience. It was only, I think the second day of school, or the third day of school. And we had a family who was just admitted that day from China, the first day of school. And the grandmother came to---she didn’t want to---you know, she goes, “He belongs in school, let him stay in school.” I said, “No, well, you know, there’s this big catastrophe, and people just have to, we have to just empty out the school, ‘cause it’s really not safe, you should really take him home.” And her comment was, you know, “I grew up with war, I lived in a place where war was going on all the time.” I think she was from Cambodia, but she’s ethnically Chinese, so she said, “This is nothing. I don’t think it’s unsafe. He needs to be in school.” So we really had to convince her to say, “Take your child home for now,” you know. And, but luckily, our families, we didn’t, there weren’t any, none of our families lost anyone there, because they don’t work at the Twin Towers, you know, so they work in the factories. But the area was devastated, because the kids---their parents lost their jobs, the factories were closed, this place was like, it was like a lockdown. And it was hard. You know, this was a --- this school was the relief center, for the Red Cross. So our school was closed for like two or three extra days, and we had families living here with the cots, and then when school, when we opened school, we couldn’t use our gymnasium in the basement, because it was still a relief center for families. Q: Can you talk a little more about the effects, other effects of 9/11. You said a lot of kids’ parents lost jobs--- Young: Yeah, they did. They lost jobs, I mean we did a project with the kids, and they wrote about what was happening at home. Kids asked if we could have classes after school, because they just didn’t want to go home, because their parents were there. It was sad for them. They also, I --- to me, they wanted to do more schoolwork, and wanted after school tutoring because they felt that if they just do their work and do it well, that’s one thing their parents didn’t have to worry about. So that was something that we saw happening. And they just wanted to hang out at school. And then we got, we did get a lot of FEMA [Federal Emergency Management Agency] money, and I was wondering, like, so what should we do with this FEMA money? We got ninety-thousand dollars. Because I didn’t want it just to do more school work. So we sent a survey out to the kids, and asked them what they wanted to do. We asked teachers what their passion was. And I told them, “We have ninety thousand dollars, so design your after school piece.” And I made it like, you know, you write a proposal, you know, just a mini-proposal, and I asked every school member, every teacher, guidance counselor, social worker, to just design your program. And you know, we have ninety thousand dollars which is a lot of money. And so teachers were great. And that’s how the oral history project came out, was one teacher decided to do this with the kids. A couple of teachers wanted to do poetry writing and poetry slam. Our Special Ed teacher, who had the mentally retarded children, he wanted to do cooking with them on Saturdays. I thought that was great, because, you know, these are children who have Down’s Syndrome, who have cerebral palsy, and if we could just have them in school for three hours, that gives the parents a break. And so he did this whole cooking thing, and they would shop, and they would cook, so he did it on Saturdays. We bought---what did we buy? Guitars, and our music teacher gave guitar lessons, so we bought about fifteen guitars and he had fifteen kids and he taught them how to play guitar, you know, lessons. Another teacher did violin lessons. So it was really very nice. And teachers just did what they wanted to do. And wanted to teach. So, then of course we had the usual, you know, test prep kind of stuff, too. But the kids had a lot of fun. We used the gymnasium, they played chess, we had photography, so it was good. Yeah. And then we got, like the New York Times gave us a lot of money to bring arts into the school, so during the school day we had a program where kids did digital photography, digital film-making. So it was this whole variety of things that kids did. Boys did knitting. It was fun. But it was hard, it was a big impact, and the kids really just weren’t used to having their parents around, you know, like their fathers and mothers in restaurants used to, they were never home, and then they just saw how depressing it was, and they didn’t want to be there. So this after school piece was really nice for them. Q: Did they have, did they ever do anything directly related to 9/11? Like writing about it, or--- Young: Yeah, they did a lot of writing about it---one of our teachers, took them down to Nino’s Restaurant, and where Nino’s just served all the firefighters and all the rescue workers, and so they went there and they did this whole documentary about Nino’s Restaurant, and they raised money and they went down, they presented the check to the owner of Nino’s, and they sat and they talked to the---they interviewed the firefighters and the police officers and so they did this piece with their English teacher. And then they presented it to the rest of the school. They videotaped it, and it’s still here. You know, the teacher’s still here, they still have the projects. Kids wrote books, and then we had, like, we had a couple of people from Oklahoma come and visit, and talked about how it was in Oklahoma when that disaster happened over there. So it was, it brought this school together, brought the community together, and the teachers together, in terms of talking about it. But we realized that you know, we did all of this outreach in trying to make sure the kids were taken care of, but I realized that the teachers were, needed that too. So we tried to use some of that ninety thousand dollars and other monies that we had, so we would have teachers come together and do some art therapy. And we had art therapy---in fact, we still have money coming from Project Liberty, which is the remnants of the 9/11 money, and this is our second year, or this is our---almost two and half years of art therapy, for our kids, and we’re still being, we’re still funded to the end of this year, and possibly next year. And the teachers just love it, ‘cause teachers got together during their lunch hour, and did this fabulous painting and just kind of own self-expression. We had people come in to do yoga with the teachers. We had aromatherapy for them. Three times, people came for the massages, they like brought massage tables. And we set up this really nice, like, dim lights and candles and music, and during the teachers’ preparation time, they would sign up and come in for the---they had all massage tables and went all out getting a massage. That was really nice. And just ways to have teachers relax, and, you know, they had retreats for us. And some teachers went. And we realized that the adults needed too, you know, maybe more so than the kids, ‘cause they were so stressed out from this thing. Q: Yeah. Young: Yeah. It’s a big job to take care of thirteen hundred kids and over a hundred teachers. Q: Yeah. Young: You know? Q: Is there a way---how did you, did you feel like you could tell how the kids were doing, or sort of processing? Young: Yeah, well, you know, we had the counselors check in, and we had---but you know, I guess maybe it’s my own personality and how I view life, but my feeling was that, you know, okay, so, we grieved a little, but we have to move on. It’s enough. We have to just keep going. And I know there was a little kind of, tug and pull between some of the staff felt that I didn’t do enough, and didn’t provide enough of the compassion and all of this memory of and kind of continue commem---or just memorializing it, and that I should have spend more time, so I knew there was a certain group of teachers that felt that way. But I think it’s just, that’s me, that’s how I feel, I feel like we should just move on. But there was a little of that resistance where I know there were some teachers who felt like, Oh, you didn’t do enough, and you know, we should have done more, and, but I---my feeling is, it’s time to just move on. [END OF INTERVIEW] Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh) 問﹕我們現在於131初中和楊鳳美一起，那麼，請你先介紹自己，說出你的名字。 楊﹕好的，我名叫楊鳳美。 問﹕請你講一些有關你在那裡出生﹖在那裡長大﹖你年幼時在那裡﹖ 楊﹕當然，嗯，其實，我在曼哈頓出生，因為，唯一的華裔婦產科醫生就在曼哈頓，我在東15街出生，但在布碌崙居住，在布碌崙長大，一直都在布碌崙居住，我在那裡讀書，小學乃至大學，我都只留在—我簡直是布碌崙女孩(笑聲)。 問﹕所以，你在布碌崙的那邊﹖ 楊﹕其實，我在一個名貴士省的鄰舍長大，爸爸擁有一間手洗洗衣店，有一間工廠專門熨摺裇衫，24小時有工人不停工作，我們居住，你知喇，一些朋友居在手洗洗衣店後面，我們就住在樓上，很多機器不停轉動，熨床之類，很嘈吵，我在那裡長大，直到結婚。 問﹕那鄰舍是怎樣的﹖ 楊﹕嗯，它叫貴士省，是意大利裔社區，其實，我住在麥當奴大道，F車就在那裡行走，是一條地上車軌， 非常嘈吵，我記得我在大學時，一些人問我要電話號碼，當他打電話來時，他以為我借用了地車站的電話(笑聲)。 所以，我住在那裡，一直到23歲。 問﹕好的，那麼，你知道多少有關你父母的過去﹖他們怎樣到美國的﹖ 楊﹕當然可以，我知道很多，其實，當家父來到這國家，他十三歲，和他爸爸及叔伯來，那時只有男性才移民，我猜想爸爸的叔伯在上州士嘉大有一間洗衣館，所以他們在那裡居住一段短時間，然後，因為和華人缺乏交往，他們決定來到紐約市到華埠來，那時在華埠有柏文或社團，又有寡佬柏文給年青人居住，他們就到來住下，就在擺也街。 然後祖父在布碌崙帝王大道開了一間洗衣館，我想爸爸以前說他想離開華人遠一點，所以就搬出華埠，他那時已常常留在布碌崙，但仍未定居下來，後來他們開了一家洗衣店，爸爸說他那時15歲，又住在那裡，我的祖父，你知喇，只想來到這裡，賺錢、儲錢、寄錢返中國，希望有一天返回中國。 後來，祖父病了，想返中國，因為那是他的家鄉，他想回去，於是我爸爸及叔伯就留下來，有趣的是，當我爸爸那時將近18歲，他們就叫他回鄉下娶老婆，爸爸於是回去，結了婚，等到大哥出世後，爸爸就留哥哥在鄉下，自己回來這裡做工， 約在八年後，又回中國，其後我的二哥出生(笑聲)。 所以，每次他每次返鄉下，就生一個孩子，在1949年，共產黨來，控制了中國，到南京，爸爸就決定，找一個律師，決定將家庭帶來美國﹕接我的哥哥及媽媽來美，然後，他想儲蓄及回中國養老的想法就沒有了，他明白每個人應該移民這裡，因為他不再想返回中國了，這是他們移民的因由。 問﹕好的，他們經過很多困難才能到來嗎﹖例如護照及……﹖ 楊﹕是呀﹗嗯﹗你知道喇﹗他要得到，嗯，其實，他的洗衣館的地區非常，我猜是富有的鄰舍，他的顧客是醫生、律師等，有一個律師定時將衣服交給爸爸洗，爸爸開始問他，你也知道喇，諸如之類的問題﹕「我怎樣申請家人到來﹖我有家人……」然後，他帶所有文件，你知道喇，給律師，做應該做的事，於是，在1949年，爸爸回到中國，就開始辦文件申請家人來這裡，家中有個笑話，是因為我在1950年出生，媽媽在香港懷了我，在1950年5月來美時正懷孕中，所以我好像是家中第一個小孩，你知道喇，是在美國生的第一個小孩。 問﹕所以，你家一共多少個孩子﹖ 楊﹕一共五個，我有三個哥哥，比我大，全部在……，兩個在中國，一個在香港出生，然後我們來這裡，他們來美國之後生了我，再生一個妹妹。 問﹕所以五個人都在貴士省﹖在布碌崙長大﹖ 楊﹕是呀，在布碌崙，但不要忘記我的年紀和長兄相差一大截，我的意思是，他幾乎可以做我的爸爸，他來時已經結了婚。 問﹕是的嗎﹖他和他太太一起來嗎﹖ 楊﹕嗯，他起初沒有帶妻子來，移民法當時規定他可以先來，然後再申請妻子，他來時已經和妻子在中國結了婚。 問﹕好的，在那時候，50年代，你的成長經歷是怎樣的，你剛才提及你在意大利人鄰舍中長大﹖ 楊﹕是啊，那是十分意大利的鄰舍，妹妹和我是在整間學校中唯一的華人家庭孩子，我不知道，不太記得小學的事情了，只是…….，爸媽管教很嚴，你知喇，我時常要照顧妹妹，她只比我小13個月，主要概念是，你不需要朋友，下課後不要到處跑，只要下課後返家做功課，所以你就，你知喇，上學，返家，很多上學，返家，然後，我爸爸…..，我那時不太明白，但現在明白他為什麼那麼做，我們家中沒有電視，他堅持我們在家中講中文，不講英文，又沒有任何玩具，我們時常做功課，及寫字，他又有間洗衣店，我們做完功課後，就到樓下幫忙。 所以他，我猜他的人生哲學是，我媽說他常常說﹕「嗯，他們什麼都不懂，怎會學到英文﹖」所以他說﹕「我們不懂英文也不怕。」他只怕我們喪失中國文化之類，所以，你知喇，他在家保留每一樣中國的東西，我們不許講一點英文。記得在三年級，我們多次央求父母後，終於得到了一部電視，於是，有一天，我讀三年級時， 爸爸來接我放學，用車載我到Sears(百貨店) ，我們買了第一部電視機。當電視送來我家時，到現在我仍記得那是星期五的下午，我們只有一個客廳，但不是，你知喇，又有一張沙發及枱，要有一個地方放置電視，我和妹妹原本坐兩張摺椅，就將電視擱在那裡，他們送電視來，我們接上電源，那是在7台，播放美國樂隊節目，我不知道電視是什麼，又是如何操作，我們就讓它一直開著，也不知道可以轉到其他頻道之類，所以每天我們都收看美國樂隊節目，然後我返學校告訴同學，你知喇，我有電視，他們就說﹕「多好，你有沒有看這、看那節目﹖」你知喇，那些表演，我就說﹕「你講什麼﹖」然後我們決定轉動那些電視按鈕，然後我發現，你知喇，我們可以轉動，可以看其他節目，我回想，「噢，我們真是被受保護的一群。」 問﹕你沒有其他朋友﹖ 楊﹕不很多，我的意思是，你知喇，我的父母不准我們到別人家中，肯定也不讓別人到我家，他們時常在樓下工作，我們在樓上，我可以看電影、或讀書、或、你知喇，打架(笑聲)，我和妹妹。有時，就算在學校，要合作做報告，同時，放學後，要一起走，要一起做研究項目，我們要花很多精神說服爸爸，出外需要大條理由的，我們……。 然後，他就駕車載我們到同學家，又接我們回來，我們要這樣做，你知喇。 問﹕為了讀書才可以。 楊﹕為了讀書，是呀﹗ 問﹕那你們講什麼中國方言﹖ 楊﹕我們講廣東話。 問﹕好的，那你家庭來自那裡﹖ 楊﹕嗯，他們來自，那時叫廣東，現在叫廣州，在南部一個省份，我想，那縣份叫台山，所以我們說台山話，我猜是，你知喇。 每星期我們都到中文學校，好像既定儀式一樣。 問﹕學校在那裡﹖ 楊﹕在華埠，你知喇，那時不像現在可以在布碌崙買中國蔬菜之類，所以，每個星期日如同旅行般，我們吃中國餐，然後出來上中文學校，由下午一時至三時，父母來接我們，那裡有一間電影院，爸爸會給我們25仙，那時候25仙可以用很久了，我們到電影院，媽媽愛看中國舞台劇，你知喇，中國電影，我們就可以看那些，我們吃晚餐，大約在晚上八時回家，我們就是這樣過星期日。 問﹕每個星期日，自少如此。 楊﹕每個星期日，是呀，一直如此，我猜，直到初中就停止了，因為我不用再讀中文學校。 問﹕所以，你和華人社區有多少聯繫，除了…… 楊﹕沒有，並不很多，你知喇，只和家人一起，我們在華埠做的事不多，除了看電影、讀中文學校，及吃晚餐，僅此而已。 問﹕你有沒有祖父母輩﹖你說過你爸爸的叔伯在這裡，他們在這裡有家庭嗎﹖ 楊﹕嗯，其實有，嗯，他們都返中國，又過世了，但爸爸有兄弟在這裡，我的叔伯及嬸母，及堂兄弟姐妹，家族，你知喇，都頗大，但相對其他家庭仍不算大。 問﹕你常見到他們嗎﹖ 楊﹕我們在星期日到華埠時見到他們，我們在勿街22號蔬菜店，我們整個家族，大部份住在布碌崙，到華埠買東西，你知喇，爸爸駕車，他買了很多很多蔬菜，因為洗衣店整日開放，八小時一班，大部份老闆都供應午、晚餐食，我媽媽為約50人煮食，弄午餐、晚餐，然後下一班工人又來，後來他們聘請一個會煮飯的，弄餐，早上兩輪午餐，於是她不停地煮大型菜，在洗衣館大約有50人和我們一起吃飯。 問﹕所以，洗衣館有多大﹖ 楊﹕巨型，巨型，像，可能比這整間圖書館還要大，有五座熨壓機器，約13部熨斗，14熨台、男工人熨衣及摺衣，我們將衣放入盒，送出店面及其他洗衣店。 問﹕所以，這些工人都來自那裡﹖ 楊﹕大部份來自華埠，他們乘地車來，長時間工作，我意思是，早班一班由早八時至晚八時，晚班由八時至早上八時，大部份是一星期六天，你知喇，我們工作很勤勞。 問﹕你說你爸爸大概要離開華埠，他有沒有告訴你原因﹖ 楊﹕嗯，我猜他想我們長大時離開，我不太清楚，他覺得他不想我們受影響，我不太清楚，那時也不多像70及80年代的黨派問題，他只覺得，我不太清楚為什麼，他說，他用奇怪的表情說，他說當華人都遷入那鄰舍，你就應該遷出去(笑聲)，我不太清楚為什麼，他只，我不太清楚，他只覺得他要我們，雖然在家不講英文，他想我們在比較像居宅區的地方成長，不像一些地方到處都是餐館及細小柏文，我們住的地方很寬闊，每人有一個房間，很好。 問﹕我們要講快一點，講你進大學的生活。 楊﹕ 是呀，我入大學，入讀布碌崙學院，你知喇，爸爸將恤衫送到很多洗衣店，他時常，到那裡都好，都駕駛到布碌崙學院附近，這偌大校園有鐘樓及尖塔，他對我說，「你知道嘛，你們將到這裡唸書，這是大學。」它就在四角型道口的終端，從百福大道一直望到底就是布碌崙學院。不知道為什麼，他送衣服時往往要走在百福大道近布碌崙學院，我猜給我們形成根深柢固的概念，當我申請大學時，我並沒有申請很多學校，他也不會讓我們離開的，我們甚至沒有去想。 於是我入了大學，入讀布碌崙學院，然後我自己駕車，我學駕車，我問﹕「爸爸怎樣去的呢﹖」就好像，我不曾去想，它看來很宏偉，不像在布碌崙區的中心，於是，我也和妹妹一同，當然妹妹也進了布碌崙學院。好像我們的志願是要入大學，我猜幸好爸爸讓我們唸大學，因為我高中很多朋友，我長大時有自己的朋友，有些朋友成為爸爸的顧客，我開始有華裔的社交圈子，基本上是因為我和爸爸收集衣服而結識的，他們和我年紀相若，又合得來，很多女孩子不能唸大學，因為他們的父母覺得要為兒子儲錢，給他們讀大學，或他們認為女孩子不應該唸大學，所以我的華裔高中同學裡，我想，我和妹妹是少數能夠唸大學的孩子。 問﹕你覺得你爸爸和別人有所不同，是因為什麼﹖ 楊﹕因為他真的相信教育，他真的說過，你要讀書，讀大學，無論是仔是女都好，我想他時常灌輸給我們，我們應讀好書，一代比一代好，不應像他一樣做牛做馬，一天工作十五小時。所以，我們時常努力做得最好，全力以赴，但他只覺得，向上的方法是我們要上學，這是美國，我們在這裡，就是要讀書，你知喇，我們真的很努力，但很困難，因為他們不能幫助我們，他們不懂很多英文，我記得我要寫一個報告，我需要百科全書，他又不准我們到圖書館，是不是﹖他不能明白，我也未能向他解釋百科全書是什麼，我只告訴他那是一本書，我們需要這些書，到圖書館那裡找，所以他的反應是﹕「我會買給你們，在那裡買﹖」然後我們走入書店，我們問，我們問那人要一套百科全科，他望著我們好像要說﹕「你們傻了嗎﹖不能在這裡買的。」那時有一個顧客走進來，他說﹕「我有一套智慧之書(Book of Knowledge)，但失了一本L， 你要不要買﹖」我爸爸於是買了給我們，那是又舊又爛，很多破繩頭在書脊掉出來，然後他買了給我們，我們就用那智慧之書。 然後，那幫我們全家來的律師，為我們做很多事，他為爸爸寫支票，處理所有賬單，每星期六我們都見他，帶餅食糕點及報紙，我爸爸付款，送給他，像是逢星期六的禮儀，我們給他洗好的衣服，洗熨他的衣服，摺好，帶回去，我們問他，他說﹕「噢，你想，你真的想要麼﹖」我說﹕「是的」，然後我爸爸用了三百元，那時候是很多錢，他買了整套世界百科全書，連同書架，每年要加新書，你知喇，我想那時我在五年級，有自己的一整套百科全書。 所以，他想為我們預備我們需要的，那很難辦得到，因為他不懂英文，我記得我需要釘書機，真的不知道在那裡買，所以，他駕車載我們，從布碌崙一直到華埠勿街Waku書店，買了這個回旋牌釘書機，我仍然保存它，你知喇，那些事很有趣，但在成長當時使人感到挫折。 問﹕是嗎﹖ 楊﹕是呀﹗ 問﹕所以……，你進入高中後，有一些朋友。 楊﹕是呀，在高中開始有一些朋友，然後入大學，你知喇，我們要搜索自己的路，很多女孩子不能讀大學，然後在大學，我結識了這圈子的朋友，基本上是華裔，我參加了中國同學會，然後一年後，妹妹入大學，我們都有很多社交， 其實，我現在仍然和那些大學朋友保持密切聯繫。 問﹕所以，你的朋友大部份和你背景相似﹖ 楊﹕是呀，是呀，很相近，他們家人基本上也開洗衣店，在相近背景成長，又在美國出生，很相近。 問﹕那時在布碌崙學院很多那樣的人嗎﹖ 楊﹕是呀，基本上，是呀。 問﹕那你在大學時，你主修什麼﹖ 楊﹕我主修教育，我一直知道我喜歡教書，我有一個姪兒，是哥哥的兒子，你知喇，姪兒父母離了婚，他大約兩歲，要住在我家，我喜歡照顧他，帶著他，我讀高中，帶他上學，接他放學，大學一年級時，很有趣，我見到他的老師們，年青，很好，他們有自己的車及其他，我很喜歡照顧姪兒，所以也很喜歡教導他，我時常想這樣做，所以我主修教育，讀了四年，實習教書，也很喜歡。我時常，然後，我畢業，在71年畢業生，那時，教師過剩，所以我到托兒所工作，和三歲半小孩一起，不是很有趣，他們睡覺，又生意外，醒來時又哭鬧。 我在那裡工作差不多半年，然後做代課教師，在第一學區，然後，在72年開始教書，之後一直在學校工作。 問﹕你一直到大學也和父母一起住嗎﹖ 楊﹕是呀，我住在家裡，和父母一起，1973年結婚，就搬出去，很刺激(笑聲)，真的很刺激。 問﹕所以，你和誰結婚﹖ 楊﹕我丈夫，大衛，他其實，我不知道，我猜他是進口來的，他在羅徹斯特生長，他的…..，我和他老表在同一大學，於是就認識了他，當他來到紐約市，就住在……，他也是教師，來到紐約市找教席，我因他老表而認識他，在同一大學唸書，所以……。 問﹕然後你們搬到那裡去﹖ 楊﹕(笑聲)，真的很遠呀，距離父母家三條街遠，我們住了好一陣子，然後我父母賣了有洗衣館那座房子，我的妹妹也住在家中，他們第一次賣了房子租住柏文，因為我爸爸時常都是住自己買來的房子，他喜歡自己當老闆，有自己的事業，有自己的房子，他第一次租住柏文交租，和妹妹一起住了三年。 問﹕那柏文在你附近﹖ 楊﹕不，他們嘗試住在兩哩外，三年，然後租金高漲，爸爸不能忍受，於是妹妹建議我們看房子，合作一起買，我說好呀，你知道喇，她找到一間十六房間的兩家庭，我們買下來，住到現在，妹妹和父母先住，在二樓，我和大衛住在一樓。 問﹕房子在那裡﹖ 楊﹕那在，我猜在海軍公園區，仍舊在布碌崙，我們住到現在，我有兩個孩子，父母過世了，妹妹結了婚，然後又買了自己的房子，然後，我們就買了妹妹那一份，房子完全屬於自己了。 問﹕你一直住在那裡﹖ 楊﹕從1978年至現在，我不是喜歡搬家的人，不會離開鄰舍的，但我喜歡住在布碌崙，很寧靜，又，但…..，很方便，但現在，我要教書，七零年代在下東城教書，市府財政短絀，我被解僱，轉到史丹頓島教書，然後又在布碌崙教，後來生了孩子，就在皇冠高地教書，那是一個品流複雜、很多印第安裔學生、很貧困的地區，你知喇，日子過得很好，我教書很開心，但回到家中，自從有兒子後，好像，天呀，掙扎很大，你知喇，很多掙扎，因為孩子需要很大。 在晚上，我時常到華埠教書，教成人英語，十五年了，每日我在布碌崙教書，逢星期二、四晚上七時半至十時就到華埠教英文，和華埠社區的成人在一起，我的中文進步了，雖然我教的是英文，但有機會用中文及其他，我想過到華埠教書，所以我在1985年到第一小學任教五、六年級，歷時十一年，那是在我成為校長之前。 問﹕好的，你是否一直教小學﹖ 楊﹕是呀，我的執照是小學老師，時常教五、六年級。 問﹕然後，你什麼時候來這裡﹖ 楊﹕1996年。 問﹕好的，是否在第一小學之後，你就來這裡﹖ 楊﹕是呀，是在第一小學之後，當我教第一小學時，我的校長真是我的師長，從她身上我學到很多，她會說﹕「你為什麼不做校長﹖」她不是中國人，覺得社區需要華人，「你可以，」她相信她是孩子及家長的模範，她說﹕「你何不讀書，回到學校讀書，取得校長執照﹖那是說，你可以成為孩子的模範，幫助家長。」那我決定，你知喇，那很好，因為我明白華人父母來到學校，只是因為他們知道有華人教師，感覺到可以向老師訴說，你知喇，他們可以有同聲同氣的人，在首次見面溝通良好，你知喇，坦白地說，他們對非亞裔人並不能坦然講話，你知喇，就是那種感覺鬆弛、舒暢的效果。 於是我在晚上上學，獲得由紐約市立大學及教育部發出的獎學金，讀了一年，取得證書，成為校長，後來他們要聘請一個人，當時小學不再包括六年級，六年級變成初中的一部份，初中有六、七、八年級，所以校監問我要不要再做初中副校長，我很怕，因為我從來未，未教過初中，校監就說，即管教，他希望初中變成較近小學的模式，孩子獲得培育，不單止像初中。於是，我在九六年成為副校長，然後那校長也是新的，有很多事要辦，他同年四月問我要不要做校長， 然後我在九七年四月成為校長，直至2003年六月。 問﹕你覺得做校長和做教書有什麼不同﹖ 楊﹕那是，你知喇，我從教室出來，走進1400名孩子、120名教師的巨大地方，那真是邊學邊做，你知道嗎﹖我記得問其他校長，找其他校長來幫忙，我每晚打電話問問題，但你知喇，我要學逐步站起來，要很快思考，很多事情要在一瞬間作決定，我想起前校長告訴我的﹕「將孩子放在第一位，當你做決定時，時常確定孩子在你的第一位，那你的決定就一定為孩子的益處著想。」因為，你知喇，這學校非常傳統，我認為，亦不是用最好的教學方法，所以，要改變學校轉到別的方向，可能令成年人及很多教師不安，但我做的每一個決定，都要遵照一個原理，就是是否為了孩子的益處著想﹖那是比較容易決定的，我認為如你有一套關於如何管理課室，或孩子應如果學習的哲學、或目標、或只是一個圖象，事情就容易得多了。 但是當然，很多人不高興學校的轉變，沒有人喜歡轉變的，但是，你知喇，有時事情是要發生的。 問﹕傳統學校相對於學校有什麼不同﹖ 楊﹕是呀﹗嗯﹗你知喇，傳統教學是我以前上學的一套，你知喇，學生排排坐，老師在前面教書，老師講學，你讀書，回答問題，這一套，孩子和老師很少對話，老師時時主宰，老師在教書，我的思考是比較激進的，我認為老師應引導學生，應幫忙孩子如何問問題，當孩子問問題時，他們應，好像，我們應引導他們找尋答案， 然後才獲得知識，所以知識不一定從我而來，因為我不知道所有事情，孩子應自己問問題及做自己的研究。 同時，我真的相信，你知喇，在學堂以外的學習，如到博物館或文化機構，有專家或講者到來，是另外一種教育方法，具備那些信念，又身為這學校的校長，現時孩子排排坐及老師站在前面教書，用一本教科書，你知喇，很難，很難才可轉變，但是，你知喇，我認為孩子真的很喜歡學習。 問﹕你可以講一些關於這間學校的事嗎﹖例如學生的背景﹖ 楊﹕噢，嗯，當然可以，這學校中，87或88個百分點是亞裔孩子，96或97個百分點有免費午餐資格，意思是我的學校屬第一條款，我猜屬貧窮線以下，貧窮線是91個百分點，但我們的學生在學區內有最高的出席率，97個百分點，15個百分點的孩子是西、非裔，10個百分點是特殊教育孩子，一半孩子是英語學習者，即他們的英文程度不足，未通過英語流利程度猜試，他們需要額外幫助，被強制學英語。 那是一個雙語計劃，每級約有120至150名孩子，在那裡接受一些用母語教授的科目，大部份時間我們用中文教社會及及數學，在雙語教育班學中文及數學的學生，成績比普通學生好，因為他們本來具備這種數學技考，只是英文一環缺乏流利，所以我們基本上用中文教，你知喇，用中文講數學概念。 問﹕你面對這麼多不會講英文的孩子，或不講英文的家長，有什麼挑戰及困難﹖ 楊﹕是呀，嗯，你知喇，那挑戰是推動他們學習英文，我們也，你知喇，教他們母語，我們嘗試，希望英文程度增進也同時保持一些中文讀、寫、聽及講的程度，引起他們動機，不致氣餒，因為，你知喇，孩子知道他們非常落後，很難跟得上程度，當然不想被踢出校，他們來的年紀是13、14歲，就讀八年級，你知喇，心中被很多事情困擾，所以我們引起他們學習動機，讓他們留下來，所以，我們就，你知喇，我們引進一套完整的文藝課程，我們有很好的老師，如此，可令孩子對舞蹈、藝術或戲劇科產生讀、寫及講的興趣。 你知喇，我們有棋藝會，有攝影會，我們想繼續這些會，不一定成功，但基本上孩子留下來讀書，畢業，希望他們能升讀好的高中，能照顧他們的需要。 問﹕你和學生的家長有多少聯繫﹖ 楊﹕唔，你知喇，我們掙扎很大，很難得到家長參與校務，我想因為那是西方概念，來學校、講出需要、受到歡迎，你知喇，尤其是華埠的家長，他們工作時間很長，他們只……，文化上，你知喇，他們覺得我的孩子在你的學校，你是專家，你是教育專家，現在我出去做工，你們也做你們的份內事，他們也不知道家長參與等西方概念。我們想家長參與，但很難得到家長前來，就算是家長日，或籌款會，因為我們的家長，你知喇，貧窮，需要長時間工作。我知道今年，市長加添了「家長協調員」的職位，他們特別推動家長參與， 我知道這學校來開會的家長增加了兩、三倍，因為家長協調員親自打電話給他們，告訴他們「請來開會」，所以有一個人用全時間照顧家長、向家長作出調查、找出他們的需要，這是很聰明的做法，是彭博市長的德政，做得很好。 問﹕當家長向你訴說時，你覺得你可以令他們更舒服嗎﹖ 楊﹕可以呀。 問﹕像是有個方法，仍然有一個鴻溝，因為你在這裡生長，而他們是……。 楊﹕是呀，的確有個鴻溝，然後我—現在這個社區的人口，很多時有很多福建家長前來，而很多時候，我也未能與他們溝通，因為他們講國語及福建話，而我只說廣東話，我發現這鴻溝越來越大，但我依賴翻譯，依賴孩子作翻譯，意思是，有時我要了解孩子，要透過三個人才明白其訊息，我確定當中一些訊息會輾轉消失，所以很難，但我想學校的溫馨，現在學校的文化不同了，令結果也不同，我想最大的分別是有了學校協調員，你知喇，就會做得更好。 問﹕你看見其他轉變嗎﹖ 楊﹕在學校﹖ 問﹕是呀，從96年至去年你離開時。 楊﹕嗯，那肯定孩子學習的方式，我是那種不用單一本教科書的人，所以我們的課室擺滿了不同程度的書籍，我真的相信我們找出孩子的程度、孩子的喜好、儘量給孩子那些書及需要的，你知喇，孩子一起學習，比較以發問為主，孩子問問題，當我初來時，學校很肅靜，你不見孩子講話，因為老師安排他們排排坐，主要由教師講話，但現在，你知喇，孩子很高興，和其他孩子講話，我們分成小組讀書，搞文學圈子，你知喇，孩子就學習了，我帶進來不同的人群和學生一起工作，尤其是文藝科，我們時常和美洲華埠博物館、分享藝術長老、亞美藝術中心、等機構保持聯繫，你知喇，對面的李萊街建築師，如你到喜士打街夾愛烈治街看看，我們和李萊街建築師公司合作一個項目，為時兩年，三十名孩子的工作項目，將對面街頭當成課室，改變街角，將一小片土地變得更好，令公眾對社區那角落產生良好深刻的印象。 然後他們真的做得很好，用建築學的角度做研究，研究那地帶的光線、噪音、噪音的種類、路過人群數目，對這小角落作出規劃，決定如何使用這小片地，令它更吸引人，令人印象更深刻，於是他們產生了願望井的概念，建造了小小的願望井，用鑲嵌階磚堆砌而成，所以如你看看這角落，我不知道你是否看過，看看它，又看看他們在牆壁上砌瓷磚的手工，這是兩年長的項目，然後他們做這些金屬雕塑如風鈴，然後掛起來，像十呎高，他們做得到。上星期我們舉行了開幕禮，真的很好。那是學習的方式，孩子應這樣學習，那很難，因為，家長未習慣那種教學方式，來自中國的孩子也不是這樣學習，所以我們要慢慢實行。我記得在學期初，當我初來時，我們沒有教科書，只有普通書籍， 你知喇，所以家長真的不安，他們說﹕「天呀﹗沒有書，教科書在那裡﹖屈拿高中那裡有教科書呢﹗」我說﹕「你知道嗎﹖」我透過翻譯解釋，學區委員又來支持我，我告訴他們，你知喇，如你到書店買第二次世界大戰的書，你知喇，你不會得到一本教科書，內中有兩、三段講第二次世界的，你可以得到一本書講第二次世界大戰的戰爭，或第二次世界大戰的總統，那是孩子應有的學習方式，因為教科書只是公司賺學校金錢的形式。」 所以慢慢地，你知喇，開始轉變，現在家長不再疑慮，他們明白那是學習的方式，他們以往曾說不願去博物館之類，就會告訴我﹕「嗯，你知喇，他們去年才去過。」就算華人描述遊覽，也直譯為遊玩，或者….，所以我告訴家長﹕「嗯，那是好的，我們去到的時候，會填這個功課表，我們將看看這些，孩子將會學習地球科學，我們去博物館是看石頭。」 所以，他們終於明白到，於是我不用再解說，我們為什麼要走出學校，或探訪其他地方了，那很好。 問﹕聽來，你的思想很前衛進，你如何產生這些觀念﹖因為你似乎來自很傳統的學派。 楊﹕是呀，其實，我受益於第二學區，因為我是那區的教師，安東尼．阿法拉度是學區學監，他真的讓教師離開教室，互相學習，互相到訪觀摩教學及閱讀方式，所以我們閱讀了很多專業書籍，討論了很多，看了不同的教導方法及兒童學習方式，做了很多研究，我認為這些令我明白教學是什麼，不單是接受，因為我那時在布碌崙教書，你知喇，他們給你書叫你用，從沒有對話，我從沒參加工作坊，從不用走出校門， 校長從不閱讀書籍，或討論，或說我們應如何教書，我們不曾互訪。但當我到第二學區，我們互訪，然後我就明白，你知喇，以往我的學年像模糊不清，並不刺激，我做只是因為我被叫去做，我知道如果我的成績不好，爸爸會很憤怒。 小時候父母不准我去任何地方，所以我要留在家中閱讀，然後，你知喇，我開始教書時，變成一個較好的閱讀者，在閱讀時能夠發出問題，及加以討論。本來我在工作坊中很難講得好，你知喇，對那本書有反思、如何和日常生活有連繫，對我很難，因為從少不容許我發問、或講述感受或想法，所以我要特別學習如何表達，我想在其中的學習過程，我對教學的看法不同了，因為那不是我以前學習的方式，你知喇，我想我不知道答案，但我想如果學習方式不同的時候，那會有什麼結果﹖我不知道答案。如果我的學校生活截然不同時，我又會變成怎樣﹖ [手提電話打斷了。] 還要多少時間﹖ 問﹕嗯，只是，可能還有少部份，有關你的日常工作。 楊﹕好的。 問﹕---什麼事﹖ 楊﹕是呀，在記憶中很多事，嗯，今天開始工作如常，九時半我就要到教育局， 因為我寫了一名老師的壞表現記錄，放在他的檔案內，他遞了勞資糾紛的投訴，我要去作證，所以我九時半到了那裡。 [第一盒錄音帶第一面完畢，第二面開始] 所以我在那一天，你知喇，像早上孩子上學一樣，我記得我要在九時離開，乘F車到Jay街站，那時約八時五十分，所有孩子都在課室，課堂從八時四十分就開始，我和副校長珍在辦公室內，她是現任校長，我聽到呯一聲，從來未聽過的巨響，珍問我﹕「那是行雷聲嗎﹖」我說﹕「希望是，」那聲音像是我從來未聽過的。 然後警衛走進我的辦公室，他說，「他們爆炸了世貿，」於是我說﹕「老天爺﹗」我馬上…，因為我們距離很近，我做的第一件事，你知喇，打電話給學區，要找出他們知道什麼，我找到諾．莫可維茲，是法律顧問，我說﹕「諾，發生什麼事﹖有沒有聽過，他們爆炸了世貿中心﹖」他說﹕「不。」他說﹕「那是意外，有架小飛機撞到一座世貿。」於是我說﹕「好的。」我說﹕「只要不是恐怖活動就好了，我意思是指，如果是一只小飛機撞進世界還好，我掛上電話，又不是了(?)」 然後，珍又跑來辦公室，她說﹕「愛麗斯，很多人死了，你要出來看看。」因為我們從操場可以看到世貿中心，於是我跑出去，和學校秘書一起，我看見世貿中心很多洞，很多煙噴出來，我們站在那裡，忽然間，第二座世貿好像爆開了，我們站在行人路，並沒有看見飛機撞到它，不知道發生什麼事，我以為第一座大樓發生一些事，燃點著第二座大樓，我們只呆呆站在那裡，我只和秘書喬伊斯互相抱緊，我說﹕「老天爺，發生什麼事﹖」 我們返回去，那時候，孩子也看見了，因為面向南面、近橋的方向的孩子看見了，我打開擴音器說﹕「你知嘛，意外發生了，一些意外，所以，一切正常，我們如正常活動，一切安好。」 然後，我們在新聞中聽到另一架飛機被劫持正飛往白宮，事情好像有點瘋狂，我們和副校長，繞學校跑了一圈確定我們安全，一切安靜，我又剛聽見一間課室很多人喊叫，於是跑進去，他們看見世貿中心正在倒塌，很恐怖，然後我只有再次提起擴音器，因為首先，我們根本不知道發生什麼事，你知喇，我就說﹕「我知道你們當中一些人看見世貿大樓倒塌，但我們要保持鎮靜，你知道，我們安全，我們很好，我們繼續留在校園中。」 然後學區辦公室打電話來，他們說﹕除非家長接他們，不要讓學生回家，我說﹕「嗯，很好，家長如何知道要接放學呢﹖」我們有一個學委正在學校中，她很好，她打電話到華語的電台，叫他們宣佈，如你是家長，有孩子在學校，請儘快接孩子走，如學生不被接走，學校不會關門。 然後，小孩被接走，家長接他們，但我們不想宣佈，像說，李約翰，你的媽媽來了，來校務處。開始時，我們決定要跑上樓梯取孩子，你知喇，然後我帶走一群孩子，我叫名，帶他們到校務處，老師帶他們到有電話的辦公室打電話，然後在六時四十五分，我想所有孩子都被接走了，但事情很驚險，我想在其後的第二天或第三天，我們遇到一個家庭剛從中國來，孩子第一天入學，和祖母來，她不想，你知喇，她說﹕「他屬於學校，讓他留在學校，」我說﹕ 「不，嗯，你知道，這裡發生大災難，人們要，我們要學校清場，因為不安全，你真的要將他帶回家去。」她評論，你知喇，說﹕「我是打仗大的，我住的地方時時打仗。」我想她是從柬埔寨來的，但她是華裔，所以她說﹕「這不算什麼事，我不覺得不安全，他需要在學校。」 所以，我們費勁要令她相信﹕「現在要帶孩子回去。」你知喇，幸好，我們的家庭，沒有，沒有家庭喪失親人，因為他們不在雙子塔工作，你知喇，他們在工廠工作，但地區被毁壞了，因為孩子……，其家長喪失工作，工廠被關閉，這地區好像是高度防備監獄，很困難，你知喇，這學校成為紅十字會的救援中心，我們的學校關閉了另外兩或三天，我們進駐了家庭和偵測系統，然後當學校重開時，我們未能使用地庫的體育場，因為它仍然用作家庭的救援中心。 問﹕你可否講一些後遺症，9/11的其他後遺症﹖你說很多孩子的父母喪失工作…….。 楊﹕是呀，他們失去工作，我意思是，我們和孩子做一項工作，記錄他們家中發生的事，學生問我們可否在課後補習，因為他們不想回家，因為父母在家，孩子不開心，他們都，對我說，他們想多做功課，想多點課後補習，因為功課做得好，家長就不需擔心，我們就知道發生一些事，他們想多留在學校。然後我們獲得很多聯邦緊急處理機構撥款(FEMA)，我就籌算怎樣處理這筆錢，我們獲九萬元，而我不想只用來做功課，故此我們叫孩子做了調查，問他們想做些什麼，我們也詢問老師學生的意向如何。 於是我們告訴他們﹕「我們得到九萬元，來設計課後班。」我講得好像，你要寫計劃書，你知喇，一份小型計劃書，我問每一名學校成員，每位老師、輔導、社工，設計你的課程，你知喇，我們有九萬元，很多錢，老師很好，一名老師決定和學生做口述歷史計劃，這就成了這計劃﹔有幾位老師想寫詩文﹔我們的特殊教育老師，在星期六教弱智孩子煮食，我認為都是好，因為，你知喇，他們有智障，腦痙攣，我們可以留他們在學校多三小時，給家長一個休息空間，於是老師完成整個煮食課程，他們在星期六可以買東西及煮食。 我們買了，買了什麼﹖結他，我們的音樂老師教結他，買了十五個結他，同時可教十五個孩子，教他們學結他，你知喇，結他課﹔另一位老師教小提琴，那真的很好。老師可以做他想做，想教的，然後當然我們有平日的，你知喇，測驗準備等，但孩子多了樂趣，我們運用運動室，下棋，我們也有攝影班，那很好，是呀﹗ 然後，我們有，如時代週刊，給我們很好錢讀文藝科，於是在上課日我們的孩子有數碼相機及數碼電影製作課程，所以，孩子做很多事情，男孩子編織，很有趣。但那是很難過及很大的沖激，孩子真的不習慣父母時時在家，你知喇，父母以前時時在餐館，很少在家，然後他們只見到家中沮喪的一面，他們不想留在家，這課後活動對他們來說很好。 問﹕他們有沒有，有沒有做一些直接和9/11有關的事情，如寫作或……﹖ 楊﹕有，他們寫很多有關事件，一位老師，帶他們到Nino餐館，Nino有很多消防員及拯救人員的食客，所以學生前去，寫作了一大份有關Nino餐館的記錄文獻，他們籌款，將支票帶給Nino餐館老闆，坐下來和他傾談，他們又訪問了消防員，警員，和英文老師寫下文獻，然後，在學校展示，他們錄影，到現在仍保留著，你知喇，老師仍然在，他們仍然保留這項目，孩子寫書。然後我們有訪客從奧克拉荷馬州來，講述他們遇到的災難，這些對話將學校、社區、及老師團結起來。 然後我們明白，你知喇，我們做這些外展，嘗試確保孩子得到照顧，但我明白老師也需要這些照顧，於是我們嘗試用九萬元及其他款項的一部份，我們招聚老師在一起，做一些藝術治療，於是我們辦了些藝術治療，其實，我們仍然有自由計劃的款項，那是9/11的剩餘撥款，這是第二年撥款，這次辦的藝術治療已有兩年半歷史，我們的孩子仍然獲得撥款，直到年底，可能明年也有。很受老師歡迎，因為老師在午餐聚在一起，繪畫很美妙的圖畫，表達自己的感覺，也有瑜伽導師來教老師瑜伽，我們也有香薰治療。 有三次，人們來按摩，帶來了按摩枱，我們擺設美好的環境，暗燈、蠟燭、音樂，在老師在空堂時簽名，進來，在按摩枱接受按摩，真的很好，老師有不同鬆弛的方或，你知喇，老師也有退修機會，一些老師去了，於是我們明白成年人也需要，你知喇，有時比孩子更需要，因為老師承受的壓力也非常大。 問﹕是呀。 楊﹕是呀，照顧一千三百名孩子及百多名老師是一宗龐大工程。 問﹕是呀。 楊﹕你知喇。 問﹕有沒有方法，你如何知道，你覺得你能夠，知道孩子的心情如何嗎﹖ 楊﹕是呀，嗯，你知喇，我們有輔導前來，我們有，但你知喇，可能是我的性格及我的處世態度，但我感覺，你知喇，是的，我們有少少傷心的時刻，但也要繼續生活，夠了，我們需要前進，我知道一些教職員多少認為我沒有做得足夠，也不夠憐憫，沒有很多記念，需要繼續評論，繼續記念，想我放更多時間，我知一些老師會這樣想，但我覺得只是，這是我，我是這樣想，我覺得應繼續向前。但有一些老師持相反意見，覺得好像你做得不足夠，你知喇，我們原本可以做得更多，又。但我，我的感覺是，該是前進的時候了。 [訪問完畢] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Alice Young 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. unknown Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. transcription Media Type The media type of this item. interview Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown Description An account of the resource New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time. Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident. To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day. Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero. Chinatown Interview Chinatown Interview: Interviewee Dr. Blanche Leung Chinatown Interview: Interviewer Ingrid Dudek Chinatown Interview: Date 2004-06-16 Chinatown Interview: Language English Chinatown Interview: Occupation Dr. in Chinatown Chinatown Interview: Interview (en) Q: This is the Chinatown Documentation Project, I am Ingrid Dudek, and let's get started. Could you start just by stating your name, your date of birth, where you were born? Leung: Sure. Do you want my title as well? [Laughs] Blanche Leung, M.D. Born April 16, 1970, and born in New York City, New York. Q: Were you born in Chinatown? Leung: No, actually I was born in Queens. Q: Is that where you grew up? Leung: Yes. I grew up in Elmhurst, Queens. Q: Okay. And your parents? Leung: My parents actually emigrated from -- my mother from Hong Kong and my father from Canton, China. Q: Could you talk a little bit about their emigration experiences as you know it? Leung: Sure. Sure. As far as I remember, from the history, my mother grew up in Hong Kong. She actually had come over with her family from China. They had lived there initially until the Communists came. So they fled China and went to Hong Kong. My father also grew up in China, and for a period of time he also went to Hong Kong. They both ended up going to Taiwan University, and from there they went to Canada. And from there they came to the United States. Q: About what time, then, were they going from Hong Kong to Taiwan? Leung: The exact time I'm not quite sure. I know at least four -- they were in university, I guess. How long ago? That'd be quite a guess. Maybe forty, forty-five years ago. When they were in university. When they went up to Hong Kong I think my mother was about four or five. My father was a little bit older then. Maybe in his early teens. Q: So it probably would have been the 60's, maybe. Leung: Yes. Roundabout there. No, actually, I'm sorry. When did they come -- probably even earlier than that. Perhaps in the mid-forties. Q: When they first went to Hong Kong -- Leung: Yes. Q: Probably after the Civil War or during the Civil War. Leung: Right. Right. Q: And then when did they meet? Leung: Well, they actually were in the same village, or relatively nearby in villages. So that's how they knew each other. The families knew each other, and when they went to university they met up again. Just due to the similarity of, I guess, background. Q: And then when did they come here -- or Canada and then here? Leung: Let me see. I think they went over to Canada in the 60's. That's when they went to Canada. And to the United States, they came in the late sixties. Because I was born here in 1970. [Laughs] They were here I think at least for about a year. So in 1969 they probably came over. Q: And what do your parents do? Leung: My father is a retired pharmacist, and actually he had his own pharmacy right near my office for a good twenty years. He retired about five years ago. And my mother is a hematology lab manager at Beth Israel, currently. Q: Did your entire family come over at that time, or their families, or just your parents? Leung: Just my parents. My mother is one of seven siblings, so she has another sister who is -- I'm sorry -- the second sister -- my mother's the third in the family -- her second sister came to California, and that I don't know exactly when she came over. But I think they were already here in the 60's, by then. She has also, her youngest sister, the seventh in the family, who came over [laughs] for college, and she settled in San Diego. But most of the family stayed in Hong Kong, and since, again, the Communist changeover with Hong Kong in 1997, a lot of the family has come over to Canada, actually. [Laughs] But -- Q: They weren't too excited about the handover? Leung: No, not really. Because my mother's oldist sister still resides in Hong Kong. Q: Does your family go back at all? Do you go back? Leung: Haven't gone back to Hong Kong in many years. I went back when I was nine years old. It was beautiful then. And I hear now it's just as busy and just as cosmopolitan as New York City. Q: So growing up, you were in Queens. Leung: Yes. Q: And your father had a pharmacy down here. Leung: Yes, he had a pharmacy -- yes, he started when I was nine years old. And I helped out every so often. [Laughs] Q: Where was the pharmacy? Leung: It was located on Lafayette Street and Walker Street. Right on the corner. Q: So when you were helping out, what kind of memories do you have of that? Or of Chinatown early on? Leung: Well, you know, the pharmacy is actually on the edge of Chinatown. At that time, in the late 70's and early 80's Chinatown was more clustered around maybe about a block or two from the pharmacy. But it has since grown quite remarkably. But what I remember, just shopping with my mom for fresh fish, fruits. I used to go to a Ping Pong club, which is a converted firehouse, which is again down the block. [Laughs] For maybe about three or four years. And other than that -- it was really busy. I remember it was always very busy. Maybe a little bit smelly. But -- and I also went to Chinese School. For six years. If you don't count kindergarten -- I guess that would make it about seven. [Laughs] I did it every Saturday. Which I dreaded. But now I actually am quite grateful that I completed it. [Laughs] Some training in my own native tongue. Q: Was it Cantonese? Leung: Yes. Primarily I learned Cantonese. Although they offered Mandarin courses as well. Q: So was there any kind of Chinese community in Elmhurst where you were growing up? Leung: No, not really. Where we lived I think we were the only Chinese family on that block. Mostly Europeans, older Europeans, grandmothers and grandfathers, settled in that area. And then, as I was growing up, a lot of the families either moved south, to Florida, or -- and more different families started moving in. So it became more a melting pot. So Elmhurst now has a diverse group of people. Not only Asians -- it's mostly Chinese in terms of the Asian population. But also there's a lot of Hispanics there. Also some Russians, and Greeks. So it's quite an interesting mix of people. Q: So Chinatown, then, growing up for you was kind of a family destination in terms of community and family? Leung: Yes. Absolutely. Because of my father's pharmacy here. My mother would also help run the pharmacy. She, of course, maintained a full time job as well. So she would come after work to help my father. And I would come on the weekends and help out with the inventory and pricing and such like that. Q: Was it mostly Chinese clientele, do you recall, or what was it? Leung: I think -- there wasn't too many, in terms of Chinese patients, because it's right on the edge, and we're near a lot of the courts here. So he had more of the police officers, the judges, so not so much the Chinese. But since his pharmacy was there, it actually built up a -- I guess it helped in terms of expanding Chinatown. So that there was more movement in that direction. So now, more so than before. Definitely. Q: And did he close the pharmacy when he retired? Leung: Yes, he closed the pharmacy when he retired. Q: I just want to back up a little bit. I wonder if you could tell me more about different the things that you did in Chinatown, because you mentioned the Ping Pong club -- Leung: Yes. [Laughs] Q: -- and Chinese school. What was that like for you? Leung: Well, let's see. My earliest memories of -- well, we can do Chinese school first, because I started off with that. I remember that I was perhaps the crybaby in the group, because I required my mother to stand near the door to keep me company while I endured kindergarten. In Chinese. Which actually wasn't much, in terms of learning your language, but, you know, it's more of a social interaction situation. Because of the fact that, where I lived, there was a small group of children who were of Asian descent. And mostly Chinese, actually. In fact -- yes. Mostly Chinese. Out of a group of five kids in my class, let's say -- there were eight grades altogether -- about six or seven were Asian, one was perhaps Korean, the rest of us were Chinese. But coming to Chinatown, at least it gave me a lot more exposure to the Chinese community. Which my parents felt it was very important. They certainly wanted me to be able to converse in my native tongue. And, my parents do speak English, also, so I could get away with just speaking English with them. But they insisted on me going to school, which I am, again, forever grateful to them for that. And I was introduced to the characters, the language. The culture, not so much. From what I remember of Chinese school, you know, there's not much -- we don't have field trips. We would just go and learn just how to speak, and write it. And memorization was perhaps the bane of my existence. Because that's what they liked to do, wrote memorization of stories, basically. So it was a little bit of learning of culture there, but it was very tedious. To say the least. Q: So it was the kind of thing that parents maybe wanted their children to do to facilitate communication in the home? And also -- Leung: Yes. Yes, I would think so. I think most of the people that I knew, the students there in Chinese school, they had parents who also had just come over to the United States. Or they were the -- their parents were the first in the generation to come to the United States. And we were the first generation born here in the United States. So it was important for our parents, at least, that the children not only know their language, but at least know their culture. So -- Q: And those children also came from New York City boroughs? Leung: I think from all boroughs, yes. I never really delved too much into it. It's interesting. My friendships with schoolmates, let's say, from my English classes, I was much closer to them than Chinese school. Because it's only once a week that we get to meet each other. So we didn't form really strong bonds. Unfortunately. Unless you live in Chinatown. And I didn't, so -- Q: How many years was that -- Chinese school? Leung: Chinese school was six years, from first grade to sixth. And you could continue past that, but I think I -- at that time I had enough, to tell you the truth. Q: What other activities and sort of impressions do you have of Chinatown from growing up? Leung: I was mostly on the outskirts of Chinatown. If anything, Chinatown was a place for me to, well, go to the Ping Pong club -- that was mostly because my mother felt that I was too thin and didn't have enough exercise. And therefore needed a little something to, I guess, bulk me up. [Laughs] So she wanted me to learn a sport, and I guess Ping Pong was -- as opposed to basketball or baseball or things like that, or volleyball, she encouraged me to do that. And also it was very close by to my father's pharmacy so they can keep a close eye on me. Q: That's convenient. Leung: Yeah, it is pretty convenient. Q: To jump forward just a little bit, because your practice now is in Chinatown, so at what point would you say you developed a different kind of commitment or different kind of relationship to Chinatown? Leung: Well, I have to say, definitely during my training as a medical student, and then as an intern and resident training in medicine. I felt that there was definitely a need to be a liaison, in a way, to the people in my culture, because I've seen in the hospitals where there are sick Chinese patients who don't say much of anything. And we're known for -- what's the word? I can think of it in Chinese, but I'm having difficulty trying to say it in English. We take a lot, basically. We don't -- we're not very vocal about being uncomfortable, in pain, and also that communication barrier is a major issue. And I remember going into some of these rooms and speaking to the patient, and they suddenly just light up, because someone can speak their language. And they converse just like normal people. They're not so stoic. It's just a matter of finding somebody who has the right communication key. And I found that I could do something, at least in that respect. Finding this place here is -- I love working in Chinatown. Truly. Because of the patient population. Most of my patients -- a lot of my patients -- are elderly. And to me they're like grandma and grandpa coming in. They're always concerned about my health [laughs], and they bring nice little goodies to make sure that we don't look like we're starved, or overworked. They're a very kind group of people, very caring. And I feel that I can give so much to them. And I'm happy to be able to converse with them, also, and take care of them. Q: Where did you go to medical school? What was your training? Leung: I went to NYU School of Medicine. I entered in 1992 and I graduated in 1996. Subsequently I did my residency, my internship and residency, also at New York University -- the Medical Center. And then I had my training in Bellevue Hospital, which sees a lot of Chinese patients, mostly because they don't have insurance. So they go to Bellevue Hospital for some care. The private hospital that's associated with NYU -- affiliated with NYU -- is Tisch Hospital. There are not so many patients there that are Chinese. However, since I've graduated and become an attending, there are a lot more Chinese speaking patients there. Definitely. Q: And your experience at Bellevue was when you sort of had this sense of a community need? Leung: Yes, definitely. When I was an intern and resident I definitely saw a lot of patients who sort of were wallowing in the shadows. They were getting medical care, but in terms of an emotional connection to their physicians, or to health care workers, there wasn't too much there. At least, I felt -- it's not that the staff didn't care. It's just, they couldn't communicate well enough with them. So, and of course, I would try to help whenever I could. If they ever needed a translator they'd run to one of us who could speak the language. And I was happy to help. Q: And the decision to pursue a medical career, this came sort of naturally out of your family experience? How did your parents respond? Leung: Well, I do fit into that stereotype of the parents strongly encouraging a pursuit in the medical profession. It also was influenced by the fact that both my parents had experience in the medical field, my father being a pharmacist and my mother having managed -- now she manages the hematology laboratory at Beth Israel. So, yeah, you can say it was placed in my head, the idea. At least when I was very, very young I got a full set of a medical encyclopedia -- 1973. [Laughs] A full set. I forget how many volumes. But luckily for my parents, I actually enjoy it. [Laughs] Although it is a long haul. Q: And can you talk a bit about being a Chinese woman in the medical profession, especially since your mother is a doctor and you are too? Leung: Oh, my mother's not actually a physician. No, she's not. She is -- she originally was a laboratory technician, and she worked her way up, and is now in the managerial position at Beth Israel. But as a Chinese female physician, I didn't feel any different, I don't think, than anybody else training. Except for, it's not just being Chinese, but just being female. [Laughs] Where, as a physician it's not quite evident to some patients that I am one. And we tend to, I guess, look a little younger than other people, I suppose. So a lot of patients assume that we're nurses or nurses' aide, and staff, but not as physicians. So every so often I get mistaken, not to be a physician. So I try to grin and bear it as graciously as possible. [Laughs] Despite the fact that I've spent a lot of years trying to pursue, you know, my career as a physician, so -- but do you want to be a little more specific as to -- ? Q: No. I'm just wondering if you have a particular perspective on it, if you feel it's a male dominated field specifically or -- Leung: Certain -- I think yes. It still is a male dominated field. But women are making more of an impact, certainly in our training classes, I guess, during residency. There are more female physicians than before. At least, I'd like to think so. But I think the ratio is still not fifty-fifty. I can't say I've experienced any major discrimination, fortunately [laughs] that I can think of. And nothing certainly that would cause me to be -- to feel that there's some injustice that needs to be immediately rectified. However, it'd be nice to see more Chinese female physicians, or just female physicians in general, in areas of administration. Because I think it's important to see that in society. Q: I wonder, to talk a little bit more, you touched on it briefly, about the kind of resources available to Chinese speaking patients. Can you talk a bit about the kind of clients you see here, generally, and specifically the Chinese clients? Maybe do you have clients that don't have insurance, or things like this? Leung: In terms of the resources that are available to the Chinese community here, I know that a lot of the pharmaceutical companies have tried to help the community in terms of getting information, medical and health information, across to the community. It's a very concentrated population here in Chinatown. Certainly, nowadays, I see more diabetes and hypertension in this population. And considering that we're not usually, or generally, obese, as a group, it's a bit concerning. So some of the pharmaceutical companies have taken it upon themselves to try to translate some of their material into Chinese, and I find it extremely helpful. But a lot of times patients just want to be treated, not necessarily educated. And some of them don't even read Chinese. So that becomes a problem, too. But I feel it's really important for my patients to understand what the disease process is, and why we're treating them with the medications. Because it becomes helpful later on to other people who may need to help them with treatment. And they're able to converse about the disease. But the resources in the community -- there is, also, the Chinatown Health Community, a center, which caters to people who don't have insurance. I'm not too familiar with their procedures, but I know that they have that available. And certainly NYU Downtown Hospital, which is formally Beekman Hospital, does cater to the Chinese community and try to be as accessible as possible by having bilingual or even trilingual signs for patients, in Spanish and Chinese, so they can navigate a little bit better. Q: What is your general practice here? Is it family practice? Leung: Well, I'm in internal medicine. Family practice encompasses a much larger group of people, so I actually just work with adult patients. That means age eighteen and above. And most of my patients are elderly, but I do have a group of young healthy patients who come in, and it ranges from all economic levels as well. And all walks of life. It's quite -- relatively diverse. I wouldn't say that it's concentrated in one particular area. So it's a nice group of patients that I have. Q: And they come here because they live locally? Leung: A lot of them do, yes. Some patients, they live further away, but by word of mouth -- I'm grateful to this, as well -- they come and see me, because I see their friends or maybe their family members. Like I've seen their grandchild, and now she wants grandma to be taken care of by me, so that's how I have some of my referrals. Q: Then I'm wondering what kind of picture of Chinatown as a community you would paint from the perspective of your practice, in terms of diversity, age, economic background -- Leung: Oh, it's an extremely diverse group. For the density of the population here it's a really, really diverse group. In such a small area, too. It's quite amazing. Which is probably why they're expanding a little bit more, down south, and down -- east or west? [Laughs] Q: So you get a whole range of ages and economic backgrounds. Leung: Absolutely. Q: I'd also like to talk a little bit about your 9/11 experiences and your perspective on Chinatown post 9/11. Where were you on September 11th? Were you here? Leung: No. I hadn't even gotten down to Chinatown. It was a day that I was scheduled to come down to Chinatown. And I was actually at the [NYU] Medical Center. I was attending a conference. And after the conference let out, I remember, it was a little bit before nine o'clock, and going into the doctor's lounge several of my colleagues were mentioning that there was some kind of commotion going on. Let me back up a little bit. Even when we were in the conference, towards the end of the conference an announcement was made to us, and it was stated that anyone who needs to go downtown cannot travel by the FDR. There was no mention made about trains. And then I went to the doctor's lounge, and my colleagues were saying to me that -- one actually was playing tennis and had seen -- some planes had flown by, and then he found out later that there was -- that the towers were hit. The twin towers were hit by airplanes. Soon enough we realized that we couldn't communicate with anybody. And actually, I had gone into the hospital, further up into the hospital to see some of my patients, and while I was there I actually saw, I believe it was probably the second tower fall. And it was so terrible, just to see that. So many people were in tears, just watching that. And really heart wrenching to see. Even brings tears to my eyes now. Q: No, it's clearly difficult for a lot of people to talk about -- Leung: Right. Definitely. Q: What happened next for you? Leung: Well, I went to see my patients. [Laughs] And thereafter, I had gone down to the ground area, and it was -- outside the hospital it was all chaos. I was trying -- first I had to figure out what was going on in Chinatown. Because we had our secretaries who were supposed to -- they actually, I believe they came in. And it was a matter of trying to get them safe home. Obviously we had to close the office. And we were concerned about how to contact our patients, but at that point in time I think everybody realized that we weren't having office hours, so -- and then it was a matter of dispensing aid locally. The hospital, the ER, had a lot of physicians already. There were too many physicians. So a lot of us were, you know, were told to just go away [laughs] and if we were needed they would contact us, so -- so I went to my office, in the midtown area, just to check to see what was going on there, try to contact whoever we needed to. Our secretaries were safe, and then it was a matter of getting to a safe place. Wherever that may be. I remember it was all chaos on the east side, because I did walk a little bit further west just to see what was going on there. And on the west side, it was almost a ghost town. Because everyone had traveled -- started to travel east, and they were trying to get across to Queens and whatnot. And one of my secretaries had to walk from 37th Street, across the Brooklyn Bridge, to get home. She survived that. I'm glad she did. It was -- it was incredible. Incredible. Q: And where were you living at the time? Leung: I was living in the Bronx. So I had to find my way. Either I could stay in the city which, at the time, was not the most pleasant thought if there was going to be another attack. However, if need be, I'll stay in the office. But I somehow managed to go over to Queens. Because my parents were in Queens, and I was concerned about them. My mother was in Manhattan, and she says she was running the hematology lab. She was -- she stayed. Because she had to oversee whatever was coming through. I don't think Beth Israel was hit much. It was mostly St. Vincent's, which was closest to the site. And my father was home safe, fortunately. I was able to travel into Queens on the ferry, which I never paid attention to and didn't quite realize it was there. But then I was stuck in Long Island City, and no trains were running, and no cars, and certainly nobody to call. And there was a good Samaritan who had a jeep, and she stopped and said, 'Anybody want to go to where we're going? I'll drop you off wherever I can.' So she took a few of us, and dropped us off. So I just walked back to my parents' home, just to make sure they were doing okay. [END TAPE ONE, SIDE ONE; BEGIN TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO] Q: What was the mood downtown, in Chinatown, in the aftermath? Leung: Yeah. Chinatown was extremely quiet after that. Usually you see a lot of hustle and bustle. You can never walk anywhere without stepping on someone’s toes. And then we had come back aI guess I don’t remember how many days we were closed maybe a couple days. We got down and there was barely anybody walking. No deliveries being made. It was kind of sad to see. It changed the community so much. But they recovered. Slowly, there were more people coming around again, consider it a place to see, of course, in New York. And it's been almost three years since then. Q: When did you have a sense that Chinatown returned to a kind of normalcy, or it felt familiar again? Leung: It probably took a few months to recover. Exactly when, I don't know. I don't think I was paying attention to it too much. Our patients continued to come, though. In the beginning there were a lot of requests for air purifiers, because there was -- I think by word of mouth, certainly there was no posting or listing that I know of, that there were air purifiers being given our to the community with a doctor's prescription. So I wrote them out for my patients so that they can obtain it. Other than that, I don't see any major impact on the health community in terms of outreach as a result of 9/11. I think I'm a little more sensitive to people with respiratory complaints nowadays, because I've noticed that there are a lot more respiratory complaints now than before. Whether or not it is due to 9/11 I really don't know. But I don't see any major changes in terms of the outreach. Q: So you already had your Chinatown practice at that point? Leung: Yes. Yes. Q: But you didn't see any major effects in terms of health from your clients or patients at that point? Leung: Major effects on my patients' health -- not really. Not a significant impact. But, you know, the only thing I recall is just air purifiers, to tell you the truth. Other than that, not much of anything else. Speaking to my colleagues who also have Chinatown practices, they don't recall any other programs that were set up specifically to address that. I have seen a few cases of, perhaps, post traumatic stress associated with 9/11 attacks, which is understandable. But it's not a large portion of my patient population. Q: So people were looking for the purifiers -- ? Leung: Yeah, interestingly enough. The Chinese community is a very closed community when it comes to mental health. There's not been much in terms of complaints or concerns from my patients regarding that. And specifically asking them about will not draw much in terms of positive responses, anyway. They usually belittle it and say, well, it's maybe fatigue and whatnot. So in terms of a clear diagnosis of the emotional impact of 9/11, I can't say that I've been able to get a good handle on that. Q: It's interesting, because studies have claimed that Asian cultures attribute emotional stress to physical ailments more often, and is that something you feel tends to happen with your clients, maybe? Leung: I'm sorry. Say that again. Q: In the sense that rather than saying, 'I'm depressed', you have back pain. Or it sort of gets displaced that way. Leung: It's possible. I think, in general, the Chinese do internalize a lot of the emotions. We're not very vocal about it. So perhaps it is converted, so to speak, into physical ailments. That's a possibility. Definitely is a possibility. Not that I've seen it too much, though, in my practice. Or I'm not really actively looking for it, so it's kind of hard to find. Q: And you haven't seen necessarily, for example, your elderly patients with increased respiratory problems, or it's hard to measure at this stage? Leung: I personally feel that I've become more short of breath lately. So -- but I wasn't even in the direct area. I was thirty blocks up. More than that. But I feel that my health has been a little different from what I usually feel, so I can just imagine the people who live here in Chinatown probably have even more symptoms, because they were close by. I do recall some of my patients saying that the smell of the debris lingered for days and days on end. It took months for it to clear. And I come down to this office about three times a week, so -- although brief, but it probably had some effect. But in terms of trying to ferret it out in my patients -- I tend to think that maybe there is an increase in respiratory complaints. But scientifically, I don't whether or not they're just -- I mean, statistically speaking, I don't know whether or not it really is an increase, or it's the status quo. Q: But because it seems there have been different initiatives targeted towards downtown residents, some of them Chinatown specific, some of them not, but you don't have a sense of that necessarily getting through to your patients? Leung: I don't specifically ask them. I'm sure that there are programs, but I'm not terribly aware of them. I haven't had patients ask me, specifically, about programs available. Specifically post 9/11 programs. So I don't know if they're aware of them through the newspaper. I don't read the Chinese newspaper, though. So I can't say that I've actually seen them. So they might have been posted, but I'm not -- I don't know about them. Q: Do you have a sense, then, that Chinatown has rebounded since 9/11? Leung: Yes. I think Chinatown has somewhat recovered from that. There are definitely a lot more people walking around nowadays, and I'm practically stepping on everybody else's toes. [Laughs] So it's nice to see that Chinatown is still up and kicking. Alive and kicking, rather. And -- yeah, I think they recovered. To some degree. But I know -- at least, looking at some of the newspapers -- there are still, the impact of 9/11, still present. Especially around Park Row. In the newspaper today there are -- I believe there is legal action that has been started regarding that area. Because businesses have closed as a result of barricading those areas. So there's still a lasting impact, despite the attempt to safeguard the people. So -- Q: I'm wondering, too, given the scale of your parents' initial investment in Chinatown when your father had a pharmacy, and your experiences then, and now with your position with a practice in Chinatown, what do you see as your future -- personal or professional --in relation to Chinatown? [cell phone] Q: I just wanted to repeat the question. Given your parents' and your father's initial place in Chinatown, with his pharmacy, and your experience early on, and now later you have a practice here. I'm wondering how you view your position in Chinatown in the future, or where you see yourself. Leung: I definitely see myself continuing my practice in Chinatown. I love being here. I love the patient population. I feel that I do fill a void, in a way, I suppose -- that I am here with my peers, who are also Chinese, caring for our people. It's always a good feeling when you can do something like that. Q: Does that feel also more common now? I mean, are there lots of Chinese-run medical practices in Chinatown? Leung: That's a good question. Not necessarily. I don't think so. However, I think physicians who are graduating, newly graduated of physicians [clearing throat] -- sorry -- are aware of Chinatown as a possible place to start their practice, or to train further, I suppose. You know, I don't actually ask my colleagues about that. But most of the practices here in Chinatown try to seek out similar types of physicians, because it's a little unusual to have people who don't speak the language practice here. Not that it doesn't exist. There are certainly physicians who are not Chinese, and who don't speak Chinese, who have their practices here. Not every day, but at least once or twice a week. So. Certainly we do need another orthopedic surgeon down in Chinatown. I think we overwhelmed one of them who is here. [Laughs] I think he's the only one here. But there's a lot of room for growth. There's a lot of patients here who need physicians, in all specialties. So, there's a lot of room to grow. Q: Well, I guess I asked that because it seems to be one of the trends, is almost the reverse of what you've done. That people who've maybe grown up in Chinatown tend to move out and away. And rather than doing that, you've actually gravitated here, to provide something for the community. Leung: Interestingly enough, I guess because I grew up a little bit in Chinatown -- it was mostly weekends, and sometimes after school when I was in high school, coming to Chinatown -- at first, I didn't like it so much, that I had to come here, to Chinatown. But there is a comfort level for me, to be in Chinatown. Interestingly enough. I've never really consciously thought about it, but I feel very comfortable. And I feel needed, and wanted, and I think I have services that I can provide. So that's why I came back to Chinatown. And I think I'm going to stay. [Laughs] For as long as they need me. Q: What is your sense, then, of Chinatown as a growing and changing community? Because there's always some political or other kinds of concerns about the way the demographics change, or the way the city relates to Chinatown as a neighborhood. What is your sense of that, in terms of your position here? I mean, it'll remain a kind of viable community for your practice -- ? Leung: Absolutely. There's always a core group of people, I think, that are going to stay in Chinatown. Granted that there are smaller versions that are developing in different parts of the city. Certainly in Elmhurst there's one that's growing. In Flushing there's a huge population, that's slowly growing. But Chinatown is its origin in terms of New York City, Chinese heritage I guess -- it all started in Chinatown. And I think most people do end up coming here. For some, maybe a short period of time, but there's a lot -- there may be a lot of turnover now, I don't know exactly what the demographics are, and how they're going to change. But I think this is the base. And, from here, it branches out. So I think it'll always be here. At least I hope it'll be here -- during my lifetime, at least. Q: It would be really interesting to see how the demographics of your practice change as a kind of measurement of that. Leung: Well, I'm certainly going to be here. And I guess -- I won't change too much, in terms of I don't think I'm going to move to another location. Unless the rent requires it [laughs]. However, certainly my patient population can change over time. It's hard to predict, in terms of what political climate it's going to be, environmental climate, nowadays. So -- there may be change later on, but it's been here long enough. So I think it'll probably weather -- 'it' meaning Chinatown -- will probably weather the changes and still be here. I really think it'll still be here. Q: Well, thank you very much. I don't want to take up too much more of your time. Leung: Thank you. [END OF INTERVIEW] Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh) 問﹕ 這是華埠文獻計劃，我是英格里德．杜特，好，現在開始，你可否告訴我你的名字、出生日期，在那裡出生﹖ 梁﹕當然可以，你要我講名銜嗎 [笑聲]﹖ Blanche Leung，醫生，1970年4月16日，在紐約州紐約市出生。 問﹕你是否在華埠出生﹖ 梁﹕不，我其實在皇后區出生的。 問﹕那是你長大的地方﹖ 梁﹕是的，我在皇后區艾姆斯特長大。 問﹕是的，那你父母呢﹖ 梁﹕我雙親其實﹕母親來自香港，父親來自中國廣東省。 問﹕可以講一些你所知的，他們移民來美的經驗嗎﹖ 梁﹕當然可以，我還記得家庭歷史，母親在香港長大，她是跟隨家人從中國移民去的，一家人本在中國住，直到共產黨到來，他們就從中國逃到香港來﹔我爸爸亦在中國長大，到過香港一段時期。他們倆都在台灣大學唸書，一起到加拿大，從加拿大再到美國。 問﹕他們那時是否由香港到台灣﹖ 梁﹕我不知道確實時間，我知道他們至少唸4年大學，是多久以前了﹖讓我猜想一下，可能是40、45年前在大學，在香港嘛，我想母親當時4、5歲﹔父親就較大一點，可能在十來歲。 問﹕所以，可能在六十年代。 梁﹕對，大約是，不對，對不起，其實他們較早期來美國，可能在四十年代中期。 問﹕當他們初到香港時……， 梁﹕是。 問﹕那可能是在內戰後，或是內戰時期。 梁﹕對，對。 問﹕他們什麼時候相識﹖ 梁﹕嗯，他們原本是同鄉，或是隔鄰鄉里，老早就認識，兩個家庭也互相認識，在大學又重逢，我猜想只因為背景相同的緣故。 問﹕然後他們何時來到這裡﹖或從加拿大到這裡﹖ 梁﹕讓我看看，我想他們60年代到加拿大，他們到了加拿大，然後60年代尾到美國，因為我在1970年出生 [笑聲]，所以他們應在這裡至少一年，1969年時，他們可能已來到。 問﹕你的父母做什麼﹖ 梁﹕我父親是退休藥劑師，其實他在我辦公室附近開設了自己的藥房二十年，在五年前退休﹔我母親現在是以色列醫院血科實驗室經理。 問﹕你的家庭，即你父母全家都在那時移民來了嗎﹖或只有你的父母來﹖ 梁﹕只有我父母來，母親在七個兄弟姐妹排行第三，她有二家姐在加州，對不起，我也不知道她什麼時候來，他們一家在60年代已定居，她有最小的妹妹在70年代來這裡 [笑聲]唸大學，在聖地牙哥定居，但家中大部份人居住香港，1997年香港交還中國共產黨，很多家庭成員其實移民到加拿大 [笑聲]，但是…… 問﹕他們對香港移交中國覺得困擾﹖ 梁﹕不，因為我母親最大的姐姐仍然留在香港。 問﹕你家人有沒有返過香港﹖你有沒有回去過﹖ 梁﹕我九歲去過一次，其後已經多年沒有回香港了，那時香港很美麗，我聽聞說，現在香港和紐約市一樣都是繁盛都會。 問﹕所以你在皇后區長大。 梁﹕是。 問﹕你父親在這裡有藥房。 梁﹕是，他有一間藥房，在我九歲時開設，我時時到店裡幫手。[笑聲] 問﹕藥房在那裡﹖ 梁﹕藥店在拉菲逸街夾獲加街，就在右邊轉角。 問﹕所以你記不記得你到店裡幫忙的事情，或對華埠有什麼最初的記憶﹖ 梁﹕嗯，你知道，藥房當時在華埠的邊緣，在70年代尾及80年代初，華埠集中心地是在藥房以外的一、兩條街，但後來發展大了，但我只記得陪同母親到市場買魚及水果，我也到乒乓球會玩耍，那地方由消防局改裝的，就在街尾 [笑聲]，有三、四年之多。除此以外，華埠挺忙碌，我記得時時人們熙來攘往，也有些腥味，我亦上了中文學校六年，如連幼稚園一起算，有七年之多 [笑聲]，每星期六都上學，我最怕，但現在回想起來，唸中文課很好，[笑聲]，學了一點母語。 問﹕你學廣東話嗎﹖ 梁﹕是的，我主要學廣東話，但他們提供廣東話或國語兩種課程。 問﹕那在你長大的艾姆斯特有華人社區嗎﹖ 梁﹕實際沒有，我們的居所是那條街唯一的華人家庭，大部份居民是歐裔、年紀大的歐洲人，其祖母及祖父輩就在那裡定居，然後，我在那裡長大後，這些家庭都南遷到佛羅里達州，然後不同背景的家庭開始遷入，該區就成了民族大溶爐，艾姆斯特居住了不同的群族，不單止亞裔，其中大部份是華人，還有很多西語裔，還有一些俄裔人及希臘人，各異其趣的族裔混雜在一起。 問﹕所以那時華埠是否你成長的主要家庭及社區﹖ 梁﹕是的，絕對時，由於我父親這裡有藥房，我的母親亦協助經營藥房，她當然也有自己的全職工作，她是在上班後幫助父親的，我就在周末幫忙盤點存貨及打價錢等等。 問﹕你記得大部份顧客是華裔嗎，或是其他人﹖ 梁﹕我想中國病人不算太多，因為藥房只在華埠的邊緣，我們貼近很多法院，有很多警官、法官前來，不盡是華人，但自從開店以來，華埠也漸漸擴張，華人顧客越來越多。 問﹕他在退休後關閉了藥房嗎﹖ 梁﹕是，他在退休後關閉了藥房。 問﹕現在我們回頭再講，你在華埠有那些不同活動﹖因為你剛才提及乒乓球會。 梁﹕是的 [笑聲]。 問﹕-- 又提及中文學校，那時的中文學校是怎樣的﹖ 梁﹕讓我想想有關華埠的最早記憶，我先說中文學校，因為那是我最早開始的活動，我是班中的喊包，因為我要求母親在幼稚園課室門外站立，陪我上課。參加中文學校的目的，並不在乎學到多少，而是學習人際關係，因為那些地方有一群亞裔小孩子，大部份是中國人。 　　這一群小孩子相差八個年級之多，--約有6-7名是亞裔，一名韓裔，其餘是華人， 能夠來到華埠，總算接觸過華人社區，我父母覺得這很重要，他們希望我曉得母語。我父母通曉英語，所以我可以轉用英語和他們說話，但他們仍堅持我唸中文學校，這點我要感謝他們，我學了字體及讀音，但並不覺得受到很多的文化感染。我不記得在中文學校的片段，那裡又沒有旅行，我們去只學讀音及寫字，背書是我的致命傷，他們基本上喜歡寫一個故事叫我們背誦，但我們至少學到一丁點文化，但十分沉悶。 問﹕父母們為了加強家庭溝通帶孩子到中文學校，此外還有什麼….﹖ 梁﹕是的，我想是，我想大部份我認識的中文學校學生，他們的父母剛來美國，或他們的父母是第一代移民美國的人，我們是第一代在美國出生的人，故此我們的父母認為孩子不但要懂中文，還要懂得中國文化，所以……。 問﹕那些孩子亦來自紐約市各區嗎﹖ 梁﹕我想是從各區來的，我沒有留意，那是很有趣的，據我看來，我和同學的友誼，從英文班來的比從中文學校來的較為深厚，因為一星期中文學生只見面一次，難以有深厚的連繄，除非你住華埠，而我又不是，所以……。 問﹕你唸中文學校多少年﹖ 梁﹕在中文學校唸了六年，由一年級至六年級，你可繼續進修，但老實講，那時我想受夠了。 問﹕在長大過程中，你對華埠其他活動有印象嗎﹖ 梁﹕我大部份時間在華埠以外活動，如說有感覺，華埠是一個我參加乒乓球會的地方，那是因為我母親認為我太瘦，運動不足，所以，我想她要訓練我強壯一點 [笑聲]，讓我練習一種運動，與籃球、壘球或排球之類相較之下，她鼓勵我學乒乓球，同時那裡靠近父親的藥房，他們便於照顧我。 問﹕那很方便。 梁﹕是啊，頗為方便。 問﹕再回顧一下，你在華埠執業，你在什麼時候對華埠產生特別的使命感，或認為華埠與你有特別的關係﹖ 梁﹕我要說，自從我接受醫科訓練，成為醫學生、實習醫生及院士後，我覺得有需要成為社區的橋樑，服務我的同胞，因為我在醫院看見很多華裔病人不能表達自己，我們被稱為…..，我不知道用中文怎麼說，也不能用英文表達，華人基本上忍受很多，不會，也不善於用言語表達一些身體不適或痛楚，溝通是一個大障礙。我記得進入病房和他們談話，他們就豁然開朗起來，因為如果有人曉得和他們講話，他們就會像正常人一般講話，只要找到一些可以溝通的人，他們原來不是真的很堅忍的。我覺得至少在這方面，我可以做一點事情，我愛在這華埠工作，真的，因為我們的父母大部份是老人家，入到醫院就好像照顧我的祖父、祖母一樣。這些老人家也關心我的健康 [笑聲]，他們又給我一些點心什麼的，讓我不會看來肚餓、或工作過勞，他們很仁慈，很關心我，我覺得可以報答他們，很高興可以和他們談話，同時可以照顧他們。 問﹕你在那兒唸醫學院﹖受過什麼訓練﹖ 梁﹕我就讀紐約大學醫學院，在1992年開始唸醫科，1996年畢業，然後在該院的醫療中心實習及駐診。其後到表維醫院接受訓練，那裡看見很多華裔病人，因為他們大部份沒有健保，都到表維醫院接受診治，那附屬紐約大學的私人醫院是Tisch醫院，華裔病人不算很多，但在我畢業後駐診時，說華語的病人越來越多。 問﹕你在表維的經驗是否令你感受到社區的需要呢﹖ 梁﹕是，絕對是，當我還是實習醫生時，很多徬徨無依的病人雖然獲得醫療護理，但是他們和醫生及醫護人員沒有很多感情上的聯繫，並不是職員沒有關心，只是雙方沒有足夠的溝通。理所當然地，我嘗試儘量幫忙，如他們需要翻譯員，院方就找我們，我樂意幫忙。 問﹕你決定從事醫療生涯時，是否自然由於家庭的影響﹖你的父母覺得怎樣﹖ 梁﹕嗯，我是那些典型的孩子，父母十分鼓勵我從事醫療行業，尤是是我父母本來就從事醫療工作﹕父親是藥劑師，母親是以色列醫院的血液實驗室經理，所以，是啊，我從小就有醫療的概念，我在非常年幼時就擁有一整套1973年的醫療百科全書 [笑聲]，一整套，我忘記有多少冊了。但我父母引以為慰的，是我真正享受此行業 [笑聲]，雖然也得經過長期的鍛練。 問﹕請你講述一下中國女性從事醫療行業的感想，尤其是你母親是醫生，你又是醫生﹖ 梁﹕噢，我母親並不是醫生，她原來是實驗室技術員，漸漸擢升到以色列醫院的管理階層。作為華裔女醫生，我不覺得很特別，我和其他人一樣接受訓練，除了---不單是華裔---也因為是一名女醫生[笑聲]之外，病人並不以為我是醫生，我猜是因為我看來較年青之故，所以他們時時誤會我是護士、助理護士、或是醫務職員之類，總之不是醫生，我時時被誤會不是醫生時，我會大方地承受 [笑聲]，雖然我花了這麼多年接受醫生的訓練。你是否要我仔細地講感受……﹖ 問﹕不，我只是想問你是否有特別的看法，你是否覺得這是男性主導的社會，抑或是……﹖ 梁﹕肯定，我覺得是，現在仍然是男性主導的社會，但在我們受訓的課程及醫院駐診中，婦女的影響力亦漸漸增加，社會上多了女醫生，我覺得是，但男女比例仍未達到50比50，我不能說我經歷過明顯的歧視，幸好我想不到 [笑聲]，我想不到有不公平的現象需要立刻改正，但是，我樂於見到在行政部門有更多華裔女醫生，或女醫生任職，因為社會大勢所趨。 問﹕你剛才稍稍提及華語病人的資源問題，我希望你多發表意見，講述有關病人，特別是華裔病人的問題﹖或者，你有沒有一些沒有保險的病人﹖或諸如此類的問題﹖ 梁﹕就華裔社區所得的資源，我知道很多藥廠想為社區提供更多資訊，醫療及健康資訊，華埠人口很集中，現在這人口群中患上糖尿病及血壓高的越來越多，而我們並不是狂食之輩，這些問題就更值得探討。一些藥廠想翻譯一些材料為中文，這非常有用，但很多時， 病人只想接受治療，並不想接受教育。一些病人連中文也不懂，也是一個問題。病人應明白患病的因由、為什麼要治療，這些都有助他的醫療人員，讓病人能討論病況等。但在社區資源方面……，華埠健康社區中心照顧那些沒有健保的人，我不太明白那些步驟，只知道他們提供這些服務。而紐約大學下城醫院--以前稱為碧文醫院--服務華人社區，為病人提供雙語服務，甚至三種語言的標語，包括西語及華語，令病人可駕馭自如。 問﹕你的專科是什麼﹖是否家庭科﹖ 梁﹕嗯，我是內科專科。家庭科接觸多類人，而我大部份只對成年病人，指十八歲及以上者，大部份病人是老人，但也有年輕健康的病人找我，他們來自各個經濟階層、各行各業，及不同背景，不能一概而言，所以我有好多類的病人。 問﹕他們來這裡是否因為他們住在附近﹖ 梁﹕很多是，有些病人就住得遠一些，因口碑而來，我也感激他們，他們找我，是因為我醫治過他們的親友，例如我醫治過他們的孫兒，現在孫兒帶祖母來給我照顧，所以我獲得一些轉介。 問﹕你從事醫生工作，怎樣描述華埠的社區人士，他們的多樣化、年齡、及經濟背景﹖ 梁﹕噢，他們極為多樣化，人口密集繁多，不同組別聚在這麼小小的地方，令人驚訝，他們也正擴展中，向南、向下，亦向東、或西方發展 [笑聲]。 問﹕所以你的病人來自不同年齡及經濟背景﹖ 梁﹕絕對是。 問﹕請你講述一些9/11的經驗，及你在9/11後在華埠的經歷。9/11發生時你在那裡﹖你在這裡嗎﹖ 梁﹕沒有，我還未到華埠，那天應到華埠上班，當時我在[紐約大學]醫療中心，正參加一項會議，會後出來在九時前一點，我正走到醫生休息室，幾位同事正提及發生一些暴亂。讓我回到前一點再講，就在會議的尾聲中，我們接到一項宣佈，說沒有FDR線地車到下城，也沒有講其他地鐵改動。當我走到醫生休息室時，一名同事告訴我，他打網球時看見飛機掠空而過，後來知道飛機撞到世貿中心，兩座姐妹樓被飛機撞了，不久我們發現通訊中斷。後來我進到醫院內層巡視病人，在醫院向外看時，其實看見第二座世貿倒下，景象令人不寒而慄，很多人看見了都流淚扎心，現在我想起都流淚。 問﹕對，很多人到現在想起來仍然難過。 梁﹕對，肯定是。 問﹕然後你怎樣﹖ 梁﹕嗯，我繼續視察病人 [笑聲]，然後我走到樓下，醫院外面一片混亂，我嘗試了解華埠怎樣，因為我們的秘書應該已到了華埠，我要知道他們是否安全，又安全回家了沒有。顯然，我們要關閉診所， 亦關注如何聯絡我們的父母，那時我們知道沒有診症時間了。我們要為駐守地工作，醫院、急症室擠滿醫生，當時醫生太多了，院方叫醫生下班 [笑聲]，又說如有需要時，他們會聯絡我們。所以我走到中城的診所，看看什麼情況，嘗試聯絡應聯絡的人，我發覺我們的秘書安全，跟著又要找尋一個安全地方落腳，那可能在什麼地方呢﹖我記得東面一片混亂，我向西行了一段路，然而西邊死寂一片，因為每個人都向東行，他們想跨區到皇后區或什麼似的。我的一名秘書要由37街、步行過布碌崙橋、回到家中，很慶幸她走畢全程，那是難以置信的。 問﹕那你當時住在那裡﹖ 梁﹕那時我住在布朗士區，所以要找路走，我可以選擇留在市內，但也恐怕會再次被襲，我想如有必要，我會留在辦公室，但是我想到法子走到皇后區，因為父母就在皇后區，我關心他們的安全。我的母親在曼哈頓，她說要留在血液實驗室主持大局，她要留下，或許有什麼要她做，我也認為以色列醫院不大受影響，因為最靠近世貿的是聖雲仙醫院，我父親則安全返抵家中。很幸運地，我乘船到了皇后區，本來我從來不留意，也不知道有船到那裡，其後我滯留在長島市，又沒有地車，又沒有私家車，又不能打電話找人接我，一位好撒瑪利亞人駕著一輛吉普車，她停下來說﹕「在我到的目的地沿途可以停下任何人。」她接了我們幾個人，又放下我們，然後我一直步行回到父母親家中，確定他們安全無恙。 [第一面錄音帶完，開始第二面] 問﹕9/11後下城及華埠的氣氛怎樣﹖ 梁﹕是的，事後華埠極其死寂一片，平日我們只見人們熙來攘往，你很容易會踏到人們的腳趾，後來我們來到時， 我不記得華埠關閉多少天了，我們不見行人，沒有人送貨，看見使人傷心，9/11改變了華埠。但後來華埠又復甦了，慢慢地，較多人來到華埠，來到紐約市遊覽，一轉眼又幾乎三年了。 問﹕你覺得華埠何時回復了正常，回到以前熟悉的樣子﹖ 梁﹕很可能是幾個月，確實在那時，我不清楚，也不十分留意，我的病人繼續來，起初，有很多人要求空氣清新機，因為有傳言，但我不知道是否有明文規定，說，如醫生寫證明，居民可得到空氣清新機，故此我為病人寫了一些證明，使他們可以取得。除此之外，我不覺得9/11後社區健康外展方面有何大影響，我比較感覺到病人投訴呼吸病多了，我發覺現在投訴有呼吸系統疾病的病人比以前多了，我不知道是否和9/11有關，但我不覺得病人外展工作有什麼重大轉變。 問﹕所以那時你已經在華埠執業了嗎﹖ 梁﹕是的，是的。 問﹕但你當時不覺得你的顧客或病人的健康有何重大轉變嗎﹖ 梁﹕對病人有什麼重大影響，不很覺得，並不是很明顯，但你知道，老實告訴你，我只記得空氣清新機，除此之外沒有其他，我的同事也在華埠做事，他們也不記得有沒有一些特別為9/11而實施的計劃，我有幾個可能是9/11襲擊的災後創傷的個案，那是可以理解的，我的病人受影響的不多。 問﹕所以很多人要求空氣清新機……﹖ 梁﹕是的，有趣的是，提到心理健康，華人社區是一個十分封閉的社區，病人不會很鄭重地投訴或關注，你很刻意去詢問他們也得不到肯定的答案，他們喜歡淡化地講，嗯，可能有一點點疲倦軟弱，所以要清楚地判斷是否9/11對情緒的影響，我不能充分作出斷症。 問﹕這點很有趣，因為前人的研究也指出亞裔文化時時將情緒壓力投射說成是身體痛楚，你的病人是否可能如此﹖ 梁﹕對不起，請重覆一遍﹖ 問﹕即是說，病人寧願不說﹕「我感到沮喪，」而改說，我的背痛，或轉化作其他投訴。 梁﹕可能是，我覺得華人將很多感情事內歛化，我們不能用口明言，將它轉為投訴身體上的痛楚，那是可能，極有可能，在我從醫經驗中不是時時遇到，或我沒有深入了解，而那是難於證實的。 問﹕你沒有看見，例如患呼吸系統病的老人明顯增加了﹖抑或是你到現階段仍未量度出來﹖ 梁﹕我個人覺得最近自己的呼吸急促了，但我並不是直接在災區居住的人士，距離災區30條街之遙，此外，我覺得健康狀況改變了些，故此我能想像住在這華埠的人可能呈現更多病徵，因為他們貼近世貿，我記得一些病人訴說他們連日來嗅到廢墟的味道，要多月才消散。我一星期約三次到這辦公室，雖然時間短，但也受到一些影響，但如果是病人能講出的病徵，則可能是較多投訴呼吸系統疾病。但科學而言，我並不知道這是否……，我是指，在統計數字上不知道是否明顯地增多了，或只是差不多罷﹗ 問﹕但當局似乎為下城居民提供有不同的計劃，一些更特別為華埠，一些特別為其他地方，但你不覺得你的病人獲得一些服務嗎﹖ 梁﹕我沒有特別詢問他們，但肯定是他們接受了一些服務，只是我不大知道而已，病人沒有特別問我可得到什麼服務，特別是9/11後遺症，所以我不知道他們是否從報張上知道，但我自己就沒有閱讀中文報紙，所以我不能說我見到這些計劃，可能報紙提及過，但我不知道。 問﹕你有沒有感到華埠在9/11後恢復過來﹖ 梁﹕有，我認為華埠已經復元了一點，現在華埠遊人肯定增多了，我很容易踏到其他人的腳趾 [笑聲]，華埠仍然興盛、滿有生氣是一件好事，我認為華埠在一定程度上已恢復過來，但閱讀一些報張時，也聞說9/11的陰影仍然存在，尤其是在柏路附近。今天的報張說有團體已提出法律起訴，因為關閉柏路引起生意倒閉，所以影響仍在，縱然有關當局說是為了保障人民安全的緣故，所以……。 問﹕我想你和華埠關係密切，你父母起初在華埠做生意，父親在華埠開藥房，你孩童時候在華埠的經歷，你現在在華埠執業等等。以你個人或專業上與華埠的經驗，你認為華埠的前景如何﹖ [手機響聲] 問﹕我想重覆再問，你父母起初在華埠做生意，父親在華埠開藥房，你孩童時候在華埠的經歷，你現在在華埠執業，以你個人或專業上與華埠的經驗，你認為華埠的前景如何﹖ 梁﹕我會一直在華埠執業，我愛這裡，這裡的病人，我在這裡填補了空缺的崗位，我的同輩--也是華人-- 我們一起照顧我們的人群，心裡覺得舒服。 問﹕這種感覺是否日益普遍﹖我是指，是否越來越多華人在華埠從事醫療工作﹖ 梁﹕問得好，並不是，我不認為是。但是，我認為新畢業的醫學生--[清清喉嚨]，對不起--明白在華埠開展事業及受訓的可能性，但你知我沒有和同事討論這些，但華埠聘請醫生大部份都是找同類的醫生，因為不懂華語的人在這裡執業很奇怪，但不是沒有，這裡肯定有醫生是非華人，不講中文，在華埠執業，他們不是每天來，可能一星期有一、兩天在華埠執業。好像我們華埠也需要多一個整形外科醫生，現時有一個留在華埠 [笑聲]，他是唯一一個，有很大的發展空間，這裡的病人需要多種專科醫生，所以有很大的發展空間。 問﹕嗯，我問那問題是以為趨勢剛剛和你講的相反，在這華埠生長的人往往喜歡向外發展，你恰好相反，回到社區服務。 梁﹕有趣的是，我想我是因為從小只接觸一點點華埠的緣故，多數只在周末，及高中時有時放學後來到華埠，初起我不怎樣喜歡來華埠，但來到後又感覺很輕鬆。有趣的是，我從來沒有認真想過，但覺很自在，需得被需要，又能為人服務，所以我回到華埠工作，將來亦會留在華埠 [笑聲]，若他們需要我，我就留下來。 問﹕你認為華埠的將來，是否會擴大及轉變呢﹖因為政治或關注團體往往喜歡預測人口轉變、或分析華埠與城市的關係。從你的專業位置看來，華埠是否仍然是可養活醫生的社區呢﹖ 梁﹕絕對是，一群核心居民時時留在華埠，在紐約市內亦湧現多個更小的衛星華埠，在艾姆斯特就有一個正在擴大，在法拉盛的龐大人口也湧現一個，慢慢擴大，但紐約市的華埠是最原裝的一個，華人傳統源自華埠，大部份人最後都來過這裡，一些人短暫時間逗留。但現在華埠的人口流動也很大，我不知道人口學上的確實情況，及轉變如何，但華埠是主要基地，從此地發展出去，所以我想華埠會繼續存在，至少在我有生之年亦希望它會存在。 問﹕如果能知道你執業的人口轉變，作為一種量度，肯定是很有趣的事情。 梁﹕嗯，我肯定自己會留下來工作，我猜我會不大改變，不會遷去其他地方，除非租金貴到非走不可的地步 [笑聲]，但肯定是，我的病人隨著歲月會改變，政治氣候或環境天氣就很難預測了，今日，將來都可能轉變，華埠已經在這裡很久了，我猜華埠會捱過一切轉變留下來，我真的認為它會長在。 問﹕十分謝謝你，我不打擾了。 梁﹕謝謝﹗ [訪問完畢] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dr. Blanche Leung 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. unknown Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. transcription Media Type The media type of this item. interview Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown Description An account of the resource New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time. Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident. To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day. Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero. Chinatown Interview Chinatown Interview: Interviewee Zhong Yue Zhang Chinatown Interview: Interviewer Florence Ng Chinatown Interview: Date 2004-05-26 Chinatown Interview: Language Cantonese Chinatown Interview: Occupation immigration Lawyer Chinatown Interview: Interview (en) Q: This is one of the Museum of Chinese in the Americas’ oral history interviews regarding the 9/11 experience in New York’s Chinatown. Today we have invited Zhong Yue Zhang, Esq. for an interview. The interviewer is I-Ching Ng. Mr. Zhang, could you tell us a bit about when you came from mainland China to the United States? ZHANG: I came to the United States on March 19th, 1989. I came to America because an academic committee let me attend an international conference. The international conference mainly focused on the management of transnational corporations throughout the world. And I had focused on writing about the direct investments of American transnational corporations in China, their behavior patterns, and also researching the investments of Japanese transnational corporations in China and the investments of European transnational corporations in China. That was my own field of research. I had been at Fudan University in China for fourteen years, including both undergraduate studies and teaching there, and finally earning a Masters degree as a graduate student in the field of international economics. During that time, I came in contact with a great amount of Western economic thought. Later, I also went to Beijing University as a visiting scholar for one year. That was from 1980 to 1981. During that time, I attended the Western Economics Research Meeting of China, and I was the youngest committee member there. So, because of my background at Fudan University and Beijing University, I had the opportunity to make contact with the best circles of learning in China at that time. In particular, I was able to be in the forefront of research in studying Western economies and the field of foreign direct investment. As an undergraduate, I had studied British and American Languages and Literatures. In early 1977, when I graduated, there were very few students who had finished four years of college study, and I was in the British and American Languages and Literatures department of Fudan University. Initially, the intention was to train us to work as diplomats, to send us to every foreign embassy and consulate. We’d start as a secretary, since we should have the linguistic basics, and go from level three secretary to level two secretary, and continue developing along that path. But because they made changes to the foreign service in 1977, after graduation, we still remained at our schools. Since I was left in school, I started studying economics. On one hand, I acted as a teacher, on the other hand, I took classes in economics, so I had a chance to interact with the best economics departments in China at that time, and the focus of the economics curriculum. Q: Then would you say that studying literature was your own interest? ZHANG: Studying literature wasn’t a matter of following my interests. When I was studying at school it was in the midst of the Cultural Revolution, that was towards the end of 1972. At that time, the universities in China had all closed and were only recently reopened. We were pretty much the only bunch of junior high school students to go straight into college, and in all of China, we only numbered about 600. Q: At that time, you were in Shanghai? ZHANG: At Shanghai’s Fudan University, yes. Q: So you would be a member of the ‘fifth generation’? ZHANG: ‘Fifth generation’ or whatever generation development – people have different ways of counting that, but I think I was a little earlier than fifth generation. Q: Then, do you feel that the study of literature and the study of economics were two very different fields? ZHANG: Literature and economics are two completely different fields. As far as literature goes, you have a robust creativity, a strong literary background, and you need to think comparatively deeply, so that gives you a sort of creativity that is distinct from reality. But in the case of economics, a lot of aspects of it are connected to science, so you need very good logical thinking skills. Besides needing to have a great understanding of the current state of society, you also need to do a lot of theoretical research, and you need a lot of interaction with the fields of math and science. So, basically, these two are entirely different fields. Q: Which one do you think you like more, or do you feel that they are mutually beneficial? ZHANG: When I first started to study British and American Languages and Literature, I didn’t enter that field because I liked it, it was because they selected me, and so I went. Every junior high school in Shanghai had a quota of a single person [to go to college], and some of them didn’t even have that. My junior high school was a very good one, Ge-zhi Junior High School. Up to the present day, Ge-zhi Junior High School has had 150 years of history, and had already been established back in the Qing Dynasty. At that time, I remember that I had more than 1,000 classmates, and I was the only one selected for college. So I didn’t study according to my interest, it was a matter of them choosing me to go. After I began studying there, very gradually, I began to feel that I had interest in literature. So why could I just switch to studying economics after graduation? Because at that time, I felt that as a male student, becoming a teacher upon graduation and always teaching would be equivalent to making myself into a tool. And what I wanted was to make English into a tool to serve me. I didn’t want it to be my main specialization. This way, I could have a great advantage in other specialties, because I could use English to read lots of books. And as it happens, when I did practical work in economics, I found I had a lot of interest in economics. Anyway, I was fascinated by economics, and I was much more interested in it than in literature. Q: Did you feel very fortunate in that you were able to study after the Cultural Revolution ended? ZHANG: Being able to study in the midst of the Cultural Revolution was a very lucky thing. Because out of all the junior high students in China – and there were maybe several million - each year only six hundred could go study. That was an outcome unique to that period of history. My family was also very happy then, because neither my father nor my mother had gone to college. My mother had been sent out from the age of eight to work as a child laborer, and my father had gone out to work as a child laborer from the age of fourteen. They met because they were both inside the same theater selling candy at the same time. Actually, my parents’ family had been very large, before the Republic of China, they had been a very big family, but because of the changes in Chinese society, the family had declined, so of course they were very happy that I could go to college. Q: Do you have any brothers and sisters? ZHANG: I have a younger brother. Q: What is he doing? ZHANG: He is at the Huangpu district of Shanghai working in the government. Q: So, Mr. Zhang, after you came to America, what was your first impression of the United States? Why did you later decide to stay here? ZHANG: When I first came over, I hadn’t intended to stay, because in my career, in my work, in my opportunities, everything was already excellent. But because of—The reason I came was, at that time, my report, I had just casually sent it out here. I had said that I wanted to attend this conference, because there were so many outstanding professors in this specialty within the country. One of them was the president of Zhong-shan University School of Economics, and he had graduated from Harvard. That was back in the 40s. Three or four times at international conferences I had bumped into him. Now, at that time, I was comparatively young, and my English was relatively good, so I could directly read lots of authors writing on economics. And because I was at Fudan University and Beijing University, at that time I interacted with the most advanced materials. He said to me, you should get out, you should discuss your point of view with other scholars, because by luck, you’re arriving on the scene just as China is starting to open up in a major way, and China is starting to attract foreign investment; and your data and your knowledge might be quite different from that of foreign scholars, so if you went abroad at this time, it would be good for both you and our country. And so for that reason, he gave me some information, saying, that year, in March of 1988, there was an international conference on transnational corporations in New York, and it was reported in an American magazine. So in October of 1987, I sent a letter to them, saying that I was interested in attending their conference. They said, send us a topic, so I sent a topic, I said I was discussing the direct investment of American transnational corporations in China, their behavior and patterns, and comparing them to those of Japanese and European companies. Because my research into this topic was, at that time, in the forefront within China, especially in regard to the direct investment of Japanese transnational companies in China. At that time within China, very few people said that there was a logic behind the direct investments of Japanese transnational companies; I said that there was, but that it was different from that of European and American companies. Because of this paper of mine, lots of people were aware of me. I wrote a letter to that organization’s council and they immediately sent a letter back, saying that this topic would be a great contribution to our conference, we haven’t had anything on this topic come in, and we hope that you quickly write up this report and send it over. So in October, after using English to write out this report, I sent it to the council, and they invited me to attend. But when they invited me, I said that at that time I couldn’t get any financial assistance to attend, because at that time I was already filling a role above lecturer, they were already planning to make me an Assistant Professor. Back then, it was very difficult to create young Assistant Professors, and I had already signed up for it, and I just needed to come back from this trip and they’d give me the post. I had already published many famous works, on the subject of Western economics, so I didn’t prepare much before coming over. If they invited me to go, I would just talk based on the knowledge that I had gained over in China. Q: So why did you stay here? ZHANG: The reason I stayed was because after arriving, I felt like I had come into contact with many scholars, and I felt that if I was only here for a few days, perhaps I wouldn’t gain a great understanding of America. Even though I had spent over a dozen years of effort studying huge amounts of information related to Eastern and Western economics, and I had taught for many years, I felt that I should stay for a while and look around, see what differences might exist between this society and what we studied in books, that great mass of information that I’d dealt with. If I only spent a few days here, then the task would be pretty difficult. The second reason was that I had spent all my own money to come, I had paid for the plane tickets and everything else. The conference gave me a little bit of financial assistance, a stipend to cover the hotel costs, because although they didn’t normally give any financial assistance, they gave me enough to pay for a few days at a hotel. So I got a visa, and soon I had come here, and I thought, at least for now, I want to live here a while longer. After living here a while, there were some other reasons, perhaps I hadn’t been too happy with my original university. So in that way, I ended up living here much longer, and finally ended up living here all the way to today. Q: Which was the organization that set up this conference? ZHANG: The organization setting up the conference was the American Business Administration Association, and the State Department entrusted it to Hofstra University at Long Island. They organized a very high-level conference. Q: After you came, where in New York did you live? ZHANG: After the conference opened, when I arrived, I didn’t understand anything, I had only thought of coming out to see what the world was like. At that time, I didn’t have much money on me, and some overseas students at Hofstra University, one of them was a law—I didn’t actually know them. One was a law student, one was an economics student, one was a math student. They said that Long Island was actually very close to New York, and that New York is a very different place. They said, you just have to take the long distance train, then take the subway, and you can get to New York. Over there are newspapers, you can glance them over, and there’s a huge Chinese community. So in that way, I stored a couple suitcases at the school, and then I took a bus and then the subway to New York. Q: Upon arriving at New York, what was your first impression? ZHANG: When I came to New York, I had many different feelings. First, I didn’t have much financial resources. At that time, I only had 29 dollars on my person. That was because when I came over, I paid for everything myself, and the salary you could make within China was limited. We also couldn’t announce having lots of foreign money, we couldn’t have any foreign money. So when I came over, I borrowed some money from fellow students. They had come to America, and saved up some money there, and they loaned me American money. I bought a plane ticket, and covered my basic living expenses, and then when I reached New York, I only had 29 dollars left. The second reason was, outside of Chinatown, they said that it’d be really difficult to go anywhere else. Even though I had studied literature for a long time, and had taught English, I still didn’t know if I could communicate with Americans using the language I spoke, or if I could get by at all. Therefore, there was a huge gap separating us. After a little bit, I had walked down to Chinatown. The first day there, I didn’t know where to stay, they said, go buy a newspaper, there’s a World Journal (Shi-jie Ri-bao). At that time there were Chinese newspapers and other newspapers. You can go ---, and above that, you can get a job, or rent a room. So I had no friends, no relatives, but still came over. I remember that after arriving, as soon as I came out from the subway, I sat at the intersection of Mott Street and Canal Street. My first thought was, ah, there’s so much Chinese stuff here, the signs, the people walking, they’re all Chinese, and I felt very comfortable. Immediately, I also felt like foreigner, because at that time I could see a lot of Chinese people, but very few spoke my local language, the Shanghai dialect, and very few spoke Mandarin. If they spoke Chinese, it was Cantonese. I didn’t understand a word of Cantonese. So, sitting there, my third reaction was to be a little flustered. I had no money, I had no idea where I would live my first day, and didn’t know where to find work. So, I sat at that intersection for about thirty minutes, and ate a couple eggs. These eggs were ones that a private group of overseas students at Hofstra University gave me, saying, why don’t you go out and see what it’s like? So, my first day, that’s the way I went to New York. After arriving, I started searching for work starting in Chinatown, asking at every restaurant if they had work for me. If I could find work, then I could rely on my own abilities, or I could study at school or settle down. So I started searching all the restaurants in Chinatown, and they asked: Can you speak Cantonese? I said, No, I can’t. And then they said, then you can’t work here, because if you can’t speak Cantonese, you can’t communicate, so there was no chance to work. I just followed the road from Chinatown all the way to the Upper West Side, heading west, and when I reached about the eighth big street, 57th Street, I went into a Chinese restaurant. Every time I had seen a Chinese restaurant, I went inside and asked them for work, and this time, I saw a man, a pretty good man, he was from Shandong in China. He was in that restaurant, I remember it was called “Hunan Garden” and he did a delivery business. He said, you look like you’ve just arrived in this place, where are you from? And I said, “I’m from Shanghai.” He said, “Inside, we have a guy who does delivery, he’s from Shanghai, I’ll help introduce you to him, and since it looks like you don’t have any place to put your feet, come inside and have some food!” I ate at their restaurant, and I remember that at that time, he gave me Jielan Beef and soup to eat, and then he gave me five dollars in quarters. He said, go use this money to call people, you can call all your friends. I said, I don’t have any friends here, and I don’t have any relatives here. He said, all you need to do is find work and then you can do anything. I said, how do I thank you, I don’t even know you, and you’ve been so good to me, especially on my first day when I still don’t know where I’m going to live. He said, no need to get excited, if you are able to succeed later on, just invite me to eat a meal with you and that’s enough. But up to this day, I still don’t know where that man is. From inside that store, a man from Shanghai came out, and he was younger than me. After looking at me for a moment, he said, “Well, it’s like this, I see that you’re a pretty good guy, and I live in Queens, and in a place called Rego Park.” He lived in a tiny basement, and his rent was very cheap. He said, “I can guess that you don’t have any money, so just live with me for a while, and later on when you find your own place, you can move out.” So that day I went with him back to Rego Park in Queens. The place we lived was very small. That room had little besides a bed, and the space next to the bed was just slightly bigger than the bed itself. He said, we’ll do it like this, and he took off the mattress and slept on that, and I slept on top of the spring box. I slept on top of it for three months, and at that time, I didn’t know, since I was very poor, and I was very nervous, because even going out to buy a bed was very expensive. At first when I went out I was very nervous, so I slept on top of there for three full months. Later I started looking for work, and I found work due to that man from Shanghai, he was called Chen Jian-xin, Jason, a really great young man. He said, “It’s like this, I’ll help introduce you.” And so, very slowly, I began delivering take-out from that restaurant. At the same time, there was one thing I hadn’t thought about, and he said, “You’ll have no trouble at all – because you came in on a B-1 Visa, so you can apply to have it changed to student status.” I said, “I can do that, but I don’t have anyone to act as my sponsor.” He said, “I’ll go and be your sponsor.” He had lots of family members immigrate to the U.S. or Canada, and so he transferred a bunch of money in my bank account. I had only known him for about one or two weeks, and he transferred about eight thousand dollars into my bank account, and then I began studying language there. It was because of these things that I could succeed, so I want to thank those two men, especially the second one who was truly exceptional. Q: So, Mr. Zhang, it sounds like you used to teach in mainland China. Considering that you were doing a higher level of work over there, wasn’t this whole process extremely frustrating? After you came here, you had to work your way up from the very bottom, and you had to work in restaurants. This must have been a huge fall in status. How did you adjust to it? ZHANG: This was a huge fall in status, so much so that even if you took all the words available to write it out, no matter how you tried to describe it, you still couldn’t accurately describe the degree to which I had fallen in the world. My circumstances in China were extremely good, my opportunities were great, and the work I was doing had already reached a high level. I had come to America not because my circumstances were bad, rather I had come over to change my surroundings, and the main reasons were the two that I just mentioned. One thing, from my childhood until adulthood, I had been living through a period of rapid change within China, going from a very closed society, from a society in which the Communist Party controlled everything very closely, all the way to a time when very, very slowly the government had started loosening the economy, and had started opening up to the outside. It was a time of huge changes, so I had a kind of urge, especially because I had studied British and American Languages and Literatures and also Western Economics. I had this urge, I always had wanted to come out and see the stuff I had studied and the stuff I had taught, and see what it was like. This was a really powerful desire. Actually, in the ten years previous to 1988, there were opportunities every year for me to come over, to go to America or to Europe. When I had graduated, I was a student not quite 21 years of age, and my English was such that, compared to others in China, I could be considered a specialist, and also I was from Fudan University, and there were only 600 in the entire nation. So, if I applied to study abroad, I could have gone at any time. The reason I hadn’t applied to study abroad then was because I had felt that China was changing. Supposing that I had gone abroad to study British and American Languages and Literature, then I wouldn’t have understood anything other than those languages, because I would have missed out on that entire period of change within my country. Later, when I returned to China to work, I wouldn’t understand Chinese people at all. So I switched to studying economics, and understood the society, and greatly delved into my studies. During those ten years, I didn’t come. So, when I came, it wasn’t because my circumstances had been bad, but maybe my urge meant more to me than those good circumstances, the desire to go change my environment meant more, and the reason for that was because I had already been an intellectual. Maybe intellectuals have a sort of imagination and passion that is more naïve than people of other social classes, so this naïve imagination acted as a powerful impetus for me. Of course, there were some other reasons, but none of them were very important. Q: So after you came to America, what differences did you feel existed between the America that you saw and the America that you studied in a textbook or that you had imagined? <a name="here"></a> ZHANG: The America that I saw, let’s put it this way, I saw New York, and I think that it is different from other places in America. Because the first place I had stopped at was—when I came into America, the first place I stopped at was San Francisco. I waited in the airport for four hours, then changed planes and went to Washington DC. When I was in San Francisco, the customs officers and the immigration officers were all very polite, all very friendly. And I saw Asian faces, and maybe that made me feel a kind of closeness, and didn’t feel like such a stranger. When I reached Washington DC, I thought that the American Management Council’s committee head would send someone to meet me, because I had brought with me a letter for Shanghai’s Wang Dao-han, to discuss holding an international conference in China. I brought his letter with me, and I hadn’t expected that he had gone away to Italy on official business, and that he didn’t receive my fax. So I was very nervous on the plane, because nobody was coming to meet me, and I didn’t know where to go after I left, so I just slept in the airport for a night. At that time, how terrified was I? Because this was a completely new country, and there weren’t Asian faces, there were a few different races, there were a few minorities, such as Blacks and Hispanics, there were about four or five of them waiting in the rear room of the airport. I was the only Asian person, and I was a little scared then, a bit scared. So I spent a night sleeping there, and for one night I didn’t go out, and anyway it was a matter of waking up after twenty minutes, or after fifteen minutes, not wanting to let anyone take my luggage, and not sure what might happen. Early the second day, I came across a cleaning person, an airport cleaning person, and he looked like he was a mixed-race person, part White and part Black. He said, considering the situation you’re in, I’ll give you a couple quarters, and you call your friend. At that time, I had the phone number of a Chinese professor at George Washington University, and so I just called him. He said, Oh, you’re already here! And then he came to meet me. So I also want to thank that person, because even though he just gave me a couple quarters, he allowed me to contact my friends outside, so I soon had someone coming to meet me. Q: Mr. Zhang, could you tell us, since you started as a worker in a restaurant, how did you end up becoming a lawyer? Can you tell us what kind of story occurred in the middle? ZHANG: Working at a restaurant in New York, it was like this, in the beginning, I studied language – I studied language at Kaplan. I wanted to raise my English level. Even though we studied a lot of English, it had been somewhat different from the English that Americans spoke. I could communicate with people, that wasn’t a problem, and I could make a speech. But when I look back at it now, my English then had been based on Chinese school lessons, and it must have been quite different than English I spoke after living here for a while. And even though I feel that my English is quite different than it used to be, even now I feel that there’s a difference between me and Americans who were born and raised here. At that time, after studying it, I came here and had a look at this society, and I felt that Chinatown didn’t necessarily fit me. The reason it didn’t fit me was because I couldn’t speak Cantonese, and I didn’t know how to take part. So I studied language at 57th Street on the West Side, and worked a little as a deliveryman, and after studying a while, I felt that if I only studied the language, it wasn’t quite equal to the kinds of books I had been studying before, and I ought to return to my specialization. So I applied to enter the City University of New York, Graduate Center, and applied to join their PhD program in economics. The director was a really good guy. He said, you graduated from Fudan University, and you have a Masters degree, so I will completely accept your academic background. He recognized all 36 credits, and enrolled me. After being enrolled, I studied one semester towards a PhD in economics. But suddenly I had used up all my money, and I had to spend all the money I had made from working on my tuition, and I couldn’t work while I was studying, so soon I had no money for tuition. I was really nervous, so once again I came out to work. At Second Avenue and 82nd Street, I was a manager for a delivery service. After doing that, there was a time when I was with several professors from China, all of them very young, and I heard them saying, about five blocks away, there was a restaurant that was going to be sold, and they said to go take a look at it. Just like that, I went and had a look and a week later I had partnered with others and bought the restaurant, at 85th Street and Third Avenue, just like that, in a moment I was involved in that restaurant. Working at the restaurant was really exhausting, because it was a huge responsibility. One important consideration was that in China, we didn’t have this kind of entrepreneurial environment, so if I could be clever enough to handle a bit of American business, then I would become accustomed to American society. When I bought the restaurant, other than getting a lawyer, I handled everything myself. I did everything, including applying for a health code sign, and for every kind of license. So at the time, when I did it, I said, regardless of whether I do this for ten years or five years, I definitely have to go back to school again. I kept that in mind while I was running it. I worked very hard, and during the first year I worked seven days without rest. At the time, my body was strong, because I had just entered my thirties, and I had exercised a lot during the time of my studies, so my body was in good shape, and I had no lack of energy, and it didn’t matter if I didn’t get a lot of sleep. But during that time I had one urge, that was to do some sort of business to understand this society, and so in this way I got involved. If you asked me now to go through it all again, and work the same way as I did then, there’s a good chance I couldn’t pull it off. Q: So how long were you working at that restaurant? ZHANG: I started at the restaurant near the end of 1989 and continued until 1993 or 1994, when I sold it. At that time, I decided I would study at a law school, and the restaurant was still there, so after studying for a semester I came back, sold the restaurant, and returned to study at the law school. So I did it for about four years or so. Q: So how did you become interested in becoming a lawyer here? ZHANG: Becoming a lawyer, the story of how I came to study at law school is really interesting. How is it interesting? At that time, I was talking with my wife, saying, if I went back to study, what should I study? Because even though I was very lucky in that I had been able to go to college in the midst of the Cultural Revolution, at the same time, I suffered a sort of side effect of the Cultural Revolution’s attitude towards learning. Maybe it was a kind of influence. What kind of influence? At that time, a lot of junior high schools didn’t have any rules, and the school curriculums were a mess, the rules that had been in place before the Cultural Revolution were all gone. So our math and science education was extremely limited, so even though when I went back to school and studied economics, when I thought about studying economics again, a lot of American schools had tons of math and science in their economics programs, especially mathematical patterns. In this way, I said, this isn’t my strong suit, and whatever I go back and study, I wanted to avoid mathematics, because I had never formally studied math. In that way, I didn’t have many choices. Besides studying economics, I could study history, administration, or I could choose to study politics, or I could study law. That night, I remember very clearly, I asked, what would be best for me to study? And we just flipped a coin. Just flipped a quarter, heads or tails. If it was heads, then I would go study law. In the end, it was heads, and I decided to study law, and that’s how I went there. Q: Did you study there with your wife? ZHANG: I studied there by myself. Q: Did you wife come here later from mainland China? Or was she here--- ZHANG: She came here before me, and was working in a different field. Q: How did you two meet? ZHANG: We met in New York. Q: After studying at law school, when did you open your own practice? ZHANG: Before graduating from the law school in 1996, I studied for three years – I studied law at the University of Maine, School of Law. My final year I studied as a visiting student at Brooklyn Law School, because my home was in New York, and I wanted to return to New York, and my wife was also in New York. So at that time I applied to be a visiting student at Brooklyn Law School. It’s a private law school. So after graduating in 1996, I stayed in New York. When I was in New York, I didn’t think about coming and starting my own firm, because all my experience was with big companies, big universities, and big organizations. Especially when I was studying in the law school, every year, I went to Hong Kong, either for training or as an intern, and I helped a couple excellent law firms with some legal work. The reason they had invited me was because I was very familiar with the Chinese system and Chinese law, and I had also studied at an American law school, and also I was comparatively familiar with Hong Kong’s situation, because I had written a few essays on it before coming to the U.S. At that time, I discussed what changes would take place immediately and in the future in Hong Kong and China, and I deeply researched the issue of whether China would have a greater influence on Hong Kong or whether Hong Kong would have a greater influence on China. So they invited me to do work related to stock market IPOs. They were doing work helping Chinese companies put H-shares upon the Hong Kong stock market, and they did appraisals and lots of underwriting. So I helped them with this within reorganizations, and they wanted to use my expertise in this area to see if certain deals could go through, and if there was a reorganization, how it would be done. So I helped them—I was directly responsible to their management, even though at that time I still hadn’t graduated. So each summer, starting in 1994, I went there, in ’94, ’95, and ’96, and even went during one winter. One of the two law firms was Deacons Graham and James. It’s the biggest in Hong Kong, the number one firm. The other one was a Top 5 City of London firm, called Simmons & Simons. During that time I began to be very familiar with a lot of Hong Kong’s special circumstances. Q: So did you do immigration cases at that time? Or did you do something different? ZHANG: At that time, I did nothing but corporate law, I hadn’t thought about doing immigration law or anything else. But in 1997, this situation changed, because after I had graduated for a little while, my daughter immigrated from Shanghai, in China. I had applied in ’95 to become an American citizen, and so I also applied for her to come to America. I thought that if I worked in a major law firm, I would have to spend lots of time there, and I wouldn’t have time to take care of her. When she came, she was 13 years old, and that’s a very important age. So I wanted to spend a lot more time with her. That was the first time that I thought, well, then I will just come out and do it myself. Before I had never wanted to come out and do things myself, and if I came out and worked on my own, I’d be doing something completely different from the law I had been doing. So at that time, I gave up my opportunity to work in a major American law firm, and instead went to work for a firm focusing on accidental injury. It’s a very good New York City firm, located on Vesey Street, and it’s very famous within the Chinese community. I acted as their Chinese lawyer, focusing on accidental injury cases. My income went down very, very much, but I thought I could gain a lot of experience, lots of experience in court. So I worked there for ten months, going to court every day, met lots of Chinese clients, represented the firm in accidental injury and workplace injury cases. After ten months, I – in October of 1998, I started my own law practice, in the beginning of 1999, I officially opened it. I started by running my firm as a general practice, because when you come out to work by yourself in a law firm, you are a solo practitioner. When I began, it was just me, I did immigration work, I did corporate law, I did divorce, I did criminal disputes, anyway, you can say it was a general practice. In the Chinese community, immigration was the biggest issue, it represented over 50% of cases. Q: What challenges do you have doing immigration applications? And I think that America’s immigration laws are constantly changing, so what sort of impact does that have upon your business? ZHANG: At the time when I first came out, the few friends I had who were already working as lawyers outside said it was more difficult, the market is very unstable. And that was because I started up in ’99, and before ’99, at the end of ’98, I left my employer, and as it happened, there were several new immigration laws which had started being revised in ’96. Before 1996, it was very easy to do, and there weren’t many lawyers, the immigration law being very easy. After 1996, there was a huge change – in 1997 and 1998. The changes made in 1997 caused the lawyers at that time to have a lot of opportunities. At the time that I came out, there weren’t any new immigration laws and there were a lot of lawyers, so it was a great challenge. To give one example, in 1996 and 1997, after the new immigration reforms, there was a new immigration rule saying that if you wished to apply for political asylum, you had to do it within a year of entering America, and if you didn’t do that, then you lost your chance, unless you had some powerful reason why the one year limit should not be applied to your case. This one-year limit was very strict. If your country changed greatly, or American law changed greatly, and there’s lots of other examples of situations which could occur, but only in these situations could you apply for political asylum after the limit. Before ’96 and ’97, you could apply at any time, you could be in the country for five or ten years and still do it. Anyway, the immigration law was becoming more and more strict. When I appeared, it was during the time that the immigration laws were becoming ever more strict. At that time, many Chinese clients, especially from Fujian, had lots of immigration questions to ask; but, at the time circumstances were not good, and the competition was fierce. Q: Can you talk to us a little about this profession? Being a Chinese lawyer in New York? What changes have there been during all these years? ZHANG: The changes in the profession of law have been huge. From the time I opened my business, after 1998 ended, one of the biggest changes occurred between the end of the year 2000 and the end of April 2001. The president at that time, President Clinton, signed an executive order which caused a lot of people who had originally been illegal immigrants to have a chance to gain the benefits of immigration. We normally refer to this as 245(i). 245(i) is a kind of special amnesty, not a complete amnesty. It gave people who had come to America prior to December of 2000, and who hadn’t been deported or processed in court a chance to apply for immigration; but you need to prove that you were already in America by December of 2000. And this application needed to be delivered before April 30th of 2001. You could apply as a worker, or family immigration, any kind of immigration, as long as it was legal, you could apply based on anything. And after you applied, so long as it was by April 30, 2001, as long as you applied before then, you could get the benefits. The benefits were that if you were rejected for immigration prior to April 30, 2001, and supposing that later on your application was ratified, then at that future time you wouldn’t need to go abroad to adjust your status. That was a time when the profession was extremely busy, and besides this, all the immigration adjustments were expanded. After the enactment of 245(i) on April 30, 2001, all of the immigration lawyers were very happy. That was because they thought that America’s regulations had been loosened, and had given a lot of people who had entered the country illegally a chance to adjust their status in this country. Perhaps several million people benefited, and we understood the new immigration laws quicker. A lot of law firms lost out on this opportunity; they decided they didn’t want to mess with this thing, and they didn’t do it, and so they lost their chance. So there were a bunch of law firms that expanded quickly, and we were one of those. In a flash, our law firm expanded, and our clients grew in number. Of course, I learned a lot of new things in the midst of this, and there were a lot of new challenges, because previous to 1998, my law firm hadn’t existed. After that immigration law, we kept thinking that another bunch of 245(i) laws would come out, and President Clinton would sign them, extending this kind of law. This would be a great thing to new immigrants, especially us Chinese immigrants, new immigrants without status, we could gain a lot of benefits. But he didn’t sign the new executive order prior to the election. He had already sent the bill to Congress, and the Senate and the House had already discussed it, there were no problems, he could sign it, and he could extend the time period and allow people who arrived later or who didn’t have a chance to apply originally to apply now. But after the explosive events of 9/11, immigration law completely changed. And they changed in an extremely conservative direction. So after those events, all the immigration laws created new obstacles for immigrants, especially illegal immigrants, ones who snuck over. Because of the changes due to 9/11, immigration law became stricter, and every sort of background was checked, and they issued all kinds of new immigration laws, and it created lots of difficulties, particularly for those that illegally snuck into the country. I believe that from the standpoint of my profession, the number of illegal immigrants decreased. In the past, a great number of people had been illegal immigrants, because after American immigration law was revised, it didn’t let you apply so easily for political asylum, and it didn’t let you get through extremely complicated court procedures very easily, so there were a lot fewer clients coming. To give an example, it used to be that an appeal would not get a result until many years later. All appeals required three immigration judges to make a decision, two could be in favor and one opposed, with the opinion of the two being sufficient. Things would take five or six years, or four or five years, and that was quite typical. But one advantage was that until the appeal was decided, during those years, you could remain in the country. You could work, and nobody would catch you and do anything. Now, in the time around 9/11, even before 9/11, they were thinking about changing this, and after 9/11 they did change it. A lot of the judges in the immigration courts were relieved of their roles, and were sent to different places. Now, there is just one judge who can decide if you win or lose. They have speeded up this kind of process, and they don’t discuss matters so carefully. So, when it comes to rejecting immigration cases, first of all, that happens a lot now, a lot more than in the past. Secondly, it happens really quickly. So everything about the new immigration procedures is very difficult. Q: Can you speak a little of your peak period, that would be during the Clinton years, how many clients did you have? Comparing now and then, how much has your business decreased? ZHANG: I’ll put it like this, I don’t have a total number so that I can say there were this many clients during my peak times. During the peak time period, I had to go to court every day. I went to court for political asylum applications at least once every day. The most I can recall is going to court seven times in one day, with four different judges. I ran all around, going here and there. If there was a day that I didn’t go to immigration court, then I would feel that the day was empty. Nowadays, if I go to court two or three times in a week, I think it’s very busy. During a week, I might go to court once, twice, or three times, and even if two of them were on the same day, and I went to the two cases in a row, that week would feel very busy. It’s a very clear-cut change, I can tell you that for sure, the change is very obvious. The applications for political asylum have decreased dramatically. The decrease within our profession has been about 95%. What sort of reason caused the political asylum applications to decrease? Because the number of cases of people sneaking into the country has decreased. Usually when we have a political asylum case, if someone comes in and asks us for help with a sponsor, their relatives will be here, and if they can be a sponsor, then they won’t be locked up, and after the person comes out they can apply for political asylum. Now, let’s say that you snuck into the country, and you’re incarcerated by the government, there’s a lot fewer people locked up, so naturally there’s a lot less people doing political asylum cases. So about fifty percent of our work had been helping people legally get their relatives released from prison, and that fifty percent is gone. Compared to the time before 9/11, this is a huge change. Q: So how did you adjust your profession? ZHANG: First of all, even though my work decreased, we haven’t been impacted so much yet. That’s because the court procedures for those who illegally entered the country take at least one or two years to resolve, and at most they take three or four years. The whole procedure, going from the Immigration Bureau to the courts, from one court to another, appealing the results, it’s always like that. So the impact of the changes in policy will only start to become obvious in the coming days. That is to say, we still have some former cases that haven’t been resolved yet. But if we don’t get new cases now, I can predict that within two years, these cases will become extremely rare. The adjustments are like that, and even though we have helped—Even though the law has become stricter, there are still a lot of other immigration cases, and we still do those. For example, if there is a legal sponsor, we will do that. If there is a case of political asylum that follows the law, we will do that. A lot of the cases we had done before, a lot of the political asylum cases succeeded, and we won a lot of green card cases, and so a lot of new cases came forward. The relatives and friends of these people wanted to immigrate, their parents and sisters wanted to immigrate; and then after their lives become stable, they wanted to buy a house, or they wanted to run a business, and these people will always come back and look for us. The sort of filings we did prior to 9/11 weren’t that many, they were just family immigration or spousal immigration. Starting in 2003, we paid a lot of attention to these cases, because we were already extremely successful in this area. We helped a lot of relatives immigrate, and our casework unrelated to political asylum developed very rapidly. I’ll put it like this, this kind of work used to be, before 9/11 that is, or back when we first started, they used to be only 10% or 15% of cases. On the other hand, this kind of immigration filing work has become 80% of cases now. In this way, to a great extent, these can make up for the political asylum cases that have disappeared. The second reason is that, we think a new immigration law will come out, and maybe the standards will be different or its range will be different. For example, President Bush has said that they are currently making some plans, and the two houses of Congress will put forth all sorts of bills, both the Democrats and Republicans. It’s all due to current politics that there’s nothing right now -- Last year they started discussing it, because of the election, maybe around the time of the election, we’ll see what time they put it forward, and that [new immigration] plan is one of them. Another one is the Dream Act, and that one says, if your child goes to high school and studies for five years, and always studies at school; if you can prove that, then they will give you a green card, these ones still haven’t passed. But, I guess that either this year or next year, they will come out. As soon as these laws come out, our law firm will be in the forefront, because we had thrown ourselves into the 245(i), and later we resolved things very well. We especially did well with the immigration filing later on. In this way, we took two areas of immigration service and we entered right into those two areas. If a new law comes out, we’ll be in a better position to expand than before, because we’re already prepared. Our law firm is… Well, since I have a scholar’s background, I don’t know how other law firms do it, but we have an internal training structure. On a weekly basis, we have a meeting to discuss new cases, the more difficult cases that we’ve come across, or new immigration laws. Last year in June, we opened our second law office, in Flushing, and besides this one, in Flushing we’ve created an entirely new internal system and gotten unique results. So, we have provided services with these two offices in the largest two Chinese communities. Over there, we’ve developed very well according to our accumulated experience. So we have an internal structure, and we’re always discussing things, always learning, and we’ve frequently published essays in the newspaper. So we’ve got a strong foundation regarding understanding new immigration law and preparing for our clients. Q: Can you talk about after 9/11, that is, the stricter immigration laws, about how much longer does it take now when you apply for a green card or to immigrate? ZHANG: There’s all kinds of reasons why somebody might apply for a green card. If you applied for a green card based on political asylum, it would be a different set of laws. To make an example, if you suffered from the one-child policy in China and wanted to get a green card based on that, this would take a long time. Every year they can handle one thousand cases, every year they take one thousand, because that’s the allotment for political asylum based on the one-child policy. So already there are ten or twenty thousand people in line, and it will be many years before you can reach the front. Even after it reaches your turn, and you apply for a green card, there is another waiting period, and there is once again a limit on the number of applicants. In this way, applicants for green card based on political asylum, before – in the beginning, five, six, seven eight years ago, perhaps you could get one in three or four years, while now it might be nine or ten years. Just a typical green card application also takes longer. Why does it take longer? Because now there’s the additional background investigation instituted after 9/11. To give an example of the difference between how it was originally and now, consider the case of spouses, if the wife or husband is an American citizen and applies for the spouse. Previously in New York, it would take about one year to finish the process, but now there is the additional background check, so it will take at least two years or more, and sometimes it will take as long as three, four years because there is no fixed time limit for doing the background investigation. All of the other green card immigration procedures have lengthened by at least one or two years. Q: Then does this influence your work or your business? ZHANG: This has both good and bad influences on our cases. The positive influence is that you can help clients with a lot more issues. One service is going to the Immigration Bureau to hasten things. In the case of lots of applications, there’s no particular reason why they’re being delayed. So one of the reasons why we often have successes is because we’re always pressuring them to hasten matters, always reminding the Immigration Bureau, asking them how the case is coming along. They won’t respond immediately, but after you push them a few times, they’ll give an answer. The bad aspect is that it’s bad for the clients, because the clients applying are usually in a great hurry, because getting an immigration green card is an overwhelming issue. The acceptance or rejection of the green card application greatly impacts the applicant’s life. It’s like the acceptance or rejection is a weight on their shoulders, and it brings lots of difficulties. I know, because I am somebody who immigrated too, and the acceptance or rejection of your application creates a lot of pressure, and it mixes up your future plans. Long-term planning is impossible, so this is really bad for them. The government today is constantly saying that they will increase the funding to the Immigration Bureau, and allow them to speed up the process. I’ve heard that current applications are actually faster than one or two years ago. The reason is because a greater budget was given to the Immigration Bureau, allowing them to move swifter. I don’t have any confirmation of that, though. However, I’ve heard that new applications today are handled faster than the old ones. Q: Can you tell us, since you’ve dealt with so many cases, have there been any especially unforgettable experiences? ZHANG: Because of my personality, I have had lots of unforgettable experiences. One thing you provide in political asylum is the specialized legal services. But the lawyer is also the only person, outside of the judge, the investigator, the translator and the family members to see this person’s inner feelings and every reaction throughout the entire process. You can see the changes in the person’s emotions, you can see what annoys the person, you can see what makes the person get nervous, you can see the points at which all the emotions come out. So there have been some political asylum cases – every case has had a big impact on me. Usually the clients hope to go through the political asylum process and gain status here, and I feel the same way. Putting aside the fact that I’m their lawyer, my background as a Chinese person who immigrated from China, it makes me care about them and their status under American law from the bottom of my heart. The first thing is that you have to do everything according to American law. I am a lawyer, I have an ethical profession, there’s definitely no problem, that’s the first thing, the highest principle. The second thing is that my personality, added on to my background, makes me feel that I have a responsibility to help Chinese clients. That’s because I understand their culture, and because I am a part of that culture. The second thing is, I understand all the different ways that they feel confused, and their difficulties, their every emotion, I understand those. Their relatives can’t understand. Because when they go to court, I’m next to them, I’m with them helping them to prepare, and they’ll tell you everything. A lot of people don’t realize how powerful their emotions are, and I stay with them every step of the way. So every case that I handle, I feel truly happy from the bottom of my heart. Lawyers have to accept fees for their services, but the fees are not so important to me, and I’ll be with them every step of the way. For example, if we are defeated, I’ll be right there worrying with them, and the reason is that I know exactly how huge a win or a loss is towards the client, how big it is to the family. For example, there’s a case, I helped a Chinese woman from Shantou in Guangdong Province, at that time she was about 50 years old, and she had snuck into the United States. After she was caught at Newark Airport, she was locked up in the new Elizabeth Detention Center. First I acted as her sponsor, and usually the detention center doesn’t release people. This woman had experienced great suffering. She had suffered harassment due to the one-child policy, the reason being that she had a boyfriend whose wife was the Village Child Planning Commission’s Chairperson. The woman and this other woman’s husband had relations and then she became pregnant. So then she was put through lots of pressure to get an abortion, and that very serious things would happen to her if she didn’t get an abortion, because she was not married. Under these circumstances, she ran away. And once she started fled, she kept going for eight or nine years, until she reached a whole different location in Guangdong Province, and after she bore her child, she raised him alone, going through lots of painful experiences. But she didn’t have any documents to prove it. When you don’t have documents to prove things, then in theory, as long as everything you say in your testimony is consistent, then you can go ahead; the judge can accept you, and you can have a chance. But usually this is pretty difficult. That case took ten months of work before I succeeded. Afterwards, I was really touched, because initially the judge hadn’t really believed the case, and didn’t seem willing to accept her. In the end, he did and he said it was like this, if you appeal the decision to the Immigration Bureau, and I let you appeal to them, you won’t succeed, because this would end up becoming a new precedent. In the past, with this kind of case, where there are no documents, this situation of a girlfriend who became pregnant, there wasn’t any kind of legal precedent, and I wanted them to create a new precedent. Finally, he agreed, and I was very touched. I said to her, I never thought it would reach this point. Even if I worked really hard on the case, I wasn’t sure we would make it. The government finally appealed the case, and on appeal they still lost. So, this precedent was created right there, and that was a new precedent. The judge said it was a new precedent. So this woman is in America now. This kind of case required that I throw all my energy and all my emotions and everything I had into it. I was extremely anxious as well, and speaking from this point of view, I have seen the true feelings of a lot of legal and illegal immigrants, and have seen many things in this world. This is an extremely – speaking as a lawyer, doing this field of work has let me experience things that lawyers not in this field can never experience. Q: What do you think of illegal immigrants? It seems that many Americans see this as a problem, a bad thing. Now, speaking as a Chinese person, and someone who has handled so many of these cases, what do you think of this issue? ZHANG: I think, speaking as a lawyer, and speaking as an American citizen, I am very respectful towards American law, I want to respect it and the people who come here should respect it, they shouldn’t sneak into the country, and they should use legal paths to enter the country. But on the other hand, because I am a lawyer, I also must focus particularly on helping my clients fight for their rights and benefits. Even though you might have come here illegally, and you might have broken laws to come here, you still have lots of rights and benefits, and that’s the great thing about America. So, I just go along with this, and I try to give the most help that I can. Now, speaking from this position, speaking from those two basic points, I don’t really understand the people who immigrate here from other countries [besides China], because my clients are generally Chinese. I think, first of all, America is a nation of immigrants. I think that new immigrants have been good for America, I think they have advanced the nation. If there hadn’t been immigrants, America, this nation, wouldn’t have the history it does. The reason that America has been able to develop to this point is because there have been immigrants from every kind of country. Regardless of whether you illegally immigrated or snuck into the country, having arrived, these people have a great risk [of being arrested and deported]. Now, speaking of Chinese illegal immigrants, my opinion is that they have helped this country advance. I’m not supporting their illegal entry into this country, and I don’t like them sneaking into the country, avoiding a lot of—that is, disturbing America with their illegal actions. But I’m speaking of after they have come here. Before they come here, that isn’t an area on which we can comment. We should follow the letter of the law. But having come here, I think, after they have already come here, as Chinese people, whether they are from Taiwan, mainland China, Hong Kong, or even Chinese people from other locations, they are all hard-working. Secondly, they bring comparatively few problems to this country. Whether you look at it from the perspective of how they educate their children, or just look at how we all work, you can see that they place great value on their children’s education, and they work really hard. Of course, there are a lot of people who do more than a few bad things, but even so, it’s a comparatively small percentage. To give an example, Fuzhou people have more than a decade of history here, and you can see how many people from Fuzhou have started take-out restaurants and buffet restaurants, not just in New York, but all over America. It’s hard to find a place without a Chinese take-out restaurant or a buffet restaurant. It’s been a great benefit to the country. Not only have they brought their culture here, but they also bring a convenience, a service. That service isn’t something that everybody can do. And I’m just giving one example. They’ve brought a lot of economic benefit to the country, and they make their children study hard, and their people get good jobs. And the people working can help their own families, and then they can help the government generate tax revenue. This is a really great thing. So I think illegal immigration, especially illegal immigration from China, has caused this country, America, to advance greatly, and that it hasn’t had any bad influence whatsoever. Q: Can you recall what you were doing when 9/11 occurred? ZHANG: 9/11 was a special moment to every single person. At that time, I wasn’t in America, I was in China, I was in Shanghai, in my mother’s home. I had booked an airplane ticket to return to America on September 12th. At that time, I was at my mother’s home, eating with my former classmates, and watching television as we ate. Suddenly on the television – my brother and others said, how could two airplanes seem to be hitting the World Trade Center towers, the twin towers? We weren’t paying attention, and neither was I, and so I thought that the television station must be playing some kind of movie. Suddenly I looked over, and realized -- what a second, how could [we be watching a movie on] Phoenix [Feng-huang] Channel? Phoenix Channel came from Hong Kong, and it was distinct from mainland China’s Zhong-yang Channel and Shanghai Channel. I thought, the news station on Phoenix Channel wouldn’t play a movie. So I looked over there, and as soon as I did, I got nervous. I saw a second plane hitting the tower. The first thing I did then was snatch up the phone, and make a phone call to my wife. Because the place she worked was at Broadway and Vesey Street, a block from the twin towers. Because the twin towers were on Church Street, and right beyond that was Broadway. Vesey is the place where the twin towers start. My wife was in that skyscraper, at the time she was doing some work at a bank. I called, trying to reach her, I said, what has happened? She said, it’s a mess. I could hear shouting in the background behind her. I said I would call my office, but I couldn’t reach them, and I left a message for them to call back, to call me in a hurry. If there was anybody in the office, they should call me immediately. First of all, get out of there. Secondly, I called again to make sure. I asked her, have you reached them? She said, I did, they’re already hurrying back. After people had left, I felt better, because I didn’t want anybody in that place, because it was very close to the site [of the twin towers]. Secondly, I said, hurry up and go. She said, I can’t go right now, it’s chaos. I waited on hold on the phone for forty minutes. My feelings at that time, maybe I told them after they came back, I was even more nervous than if I had been at my New York office, or had been at that place, because the people who weren’t in America at that moment were very panicked. The feeling was one of overwhelming panic. And I called again for my daughter, but I couldn’t reach her, because she was studying at the Bronx Science High School. Then, later, I couldn’t find her for a full day. My wife finally told me that she had found her, and that my daughter had gone to her classmate’s home to stay. All the people in the office had left, so I finally relaxed. And then my wife was inside, and she shouted one thing to me, she said, “Oh my God! It’s gone. It’s gone.” I said, what is gone? She said, the two towers are gone. I said, I can see them on the TV, they’re smoking. She said, it’s gone. It’s collapsed. So, I was extremely worried then. From that point on, I was constantly making phone calls. I think that my feelings at that time -- because I had personally spent lots of time in the area around the 9/11 towers, and my office was also in that area. But I was also extremely worried, because I was in Shanghai, and yet my heart was completely, more than 100% in this place, I was worried about the safety of the employees at my office, worried about my wife, worried about the condition of my daughter. So I was always trying to reach them, and I was speaking to the airline asking when I could go back. And I was constantly unable to go back, all the way until the 17th. That was the first airplane allowed to fly in from China, and it flew into San Francisco. When I came out of San Francisco, I saw the National Guard in full military dress, and there were more of them than passengers. And in a flash, I was back at my office, but when I returned to my office, the whole neighborhood had changed. Starting from Broadway and Canal Street, it was all National Guard. Everything was closed off, you couldn’t get in. Other than workers, nobody could get in. It was like a militarized zone. It was like watching a movie. The whole environment had changed, a complete – it was like the kind of scene you saw in movies about the Second World War. If I went back to the office, it was filled with a weird smell, like smoke from a gun. There was nobody on the streets, in all of Broadway, I’d never seen anything like this, what seemed like an empty lot, no cars could come in, all of it was National Guard stationed there. If you went in, they wanted to see your ID. Otherwise, I couldn’t go back to my office. So after I returned, there was about one or two weeks during which I couldn’t work. The doors weren’t open, all the information and cases were broken off. For half a year after I came back, I was constantly experiencing great turmoil. All of Chinatown was completely different, and all of New York City was completely different. [Second Tape] Q: Mr. Zhang, please continue speaking about the incident of 9/11. ZHANG: After 9/11 occurred, after I returned from Shanghai, the first thing I did was go back to my office. But they couldn’t let me in, because the entire National Guard had closed off everything starting with Canal Street. As soon as it was closed off, if you wanted to get in, they had to check your identification. For the first one or two weeks, they couldn’t let you in. After they loosened up, I went in, and upon going in, I discovered that the whole structure of the place had changed. At the time, I didn’t know how to describe it, and I didn’t know what the future would be like. You could walk all over Chinatown very comfortably, because, wherever you walked, there was no traffic. Lots of restaurants had closed their doors, lots of businesses were closed. I thought, none of our clients will come. We don’t have any more business. It wasn’t just us without business, all of Chinatown was like a ghost town, and lots of restaurants had closed up. If you went to eat lunch, lots of restaurants had just one table or two tables. For a long time, the whole business environment had changed. Our law firm’s environment had changed too. From that point on, the immigration business dropped off dramatically, and there was a huge change everywhere. We thought that it would be a very, very gradual process before it took off again, so we went through a very difficult period of adjustment. That’s why we paid extra close attention to giving law services to our clients. We could do some filing, do immigration according to the situation in society. At least we could provide every kind of – everything they were unclear about, we helped them with. So the moment of 9/11, that moment is something I probably will not forget my whole life. Even though I wasn’t in the US at that time, my family and my office were very close to the 9/11 twin towers, and I believe that experience was unique, something that you can not forget in a lifetime. The shock I felt, and the sense of powerlessness, I believe it wasn’t any less powerful than the people who personally saw the skyscrapers fall. The difference was only that the sensation came from a different perspective. Q: You came here during the time of the Cultural Revolution. Did you suffer any harassment during the Cultural Revolution? Comparing the troubles of the Cultural Revolution with the events of 9/11, how did they impact you differently? ZHANG: I was very small during the time of the Cultural Revolution, so there’s not that much that I can say. But my family had suffered some great blows then. My father had been dragged off many times, and because of the Cultural Revolution, his body became messed up, because at that time he was a tax official. About ten months before the outbreak of the Cultural Revolution, he had been sent to some new place to straighten out their tax situation, and then that’s when the Cultural Revolution started. He had been sent by the mayor of Shanghai, so he ended up beaten nearly lifeless, and was nearly dumped in Heilong River. At that time, during those experiences, I was very small. I was only 12 or 13 years old. But I think that experience caused me to grow up and become an adult. It was due to the shock to my family, because just think, you never knew when it might happen, sometime in the middle of the night, strangers might knock on the door, that sound of knocking. In a moment, a life that had been extremely tranquil became completely different. When there was a knock on the door, you didn’t know if they had come to snatch your father, or if they came to seize your home, or what. That fear, that sense of being terrorized, to speak of it from a different perspective, in my entire life, it has definitely been an unforgettable experience. I was also able to mature because of that. But the Cultural Revolution did not hurt me individually or anything. To have experienced it, I think, to have experienced the Cultural Revolution was an extremely different experience. That experience gave me lots of internal things for my future growth. It gave me a different way of considering certain problems. You could say I became comparatively sophisticated, or relatively complicated, or more mature than others. Q: After 9/11 occurred, after this terrorist strike, has that incident caused your attitude towards America to change? ZHANG: My attitude towards America changed, and that change came from two things. First, after 9/11, I suddenly realized that Americans love their country to a much deeper level than I had previously noticed. Their love is much broader and more common than I had realized. Americans’ love of country, to speak from a certain perspective, I think that compared to what I saw before in China, it goes beyond the love Chinese have for their country, and it is a broad-based feeling. They really love their country and they are really united. This country’s feeling of identity also suddenly increased dramatically. If 9/11 had never occurred, perhaps during my entire lifetime, Americans would never gain the sense of identity that they have now. The second change, I think the political atmosphere has trended conservative. As far as the shift towards conservatism goes, on the positive side is the devotion and love for their country. Everyone’s feeling of loving their country has become more conservative, or what has trended conservative is people’s love of country. But I think that from a certain point of view you can say that the change in government, they’ve shut themselves off a little too much. It’s started to be a bit different from the sort of energy that existed at the founding of this country. To me, this change is another thing that has deeply impacted me. Because my understanding of America and my love for America had originally been based on my study of many things, and based on my personal experiences prior to 9/11, my accumulation of over ten years of experience in America. This still hasn’t changed. I think this is a good country, it’s a country of immigrants. The good thing about this country is that it is extremely democratic. The good thing about this country is that it has a complete system of law which can protect every kind of person, and you have freedom of speech, freedom to do whatever you want, just as long as you don’t break the law. This kind of a system, in other places in the world, at least the places I’ve been to, in China, the Chinese legal system isn’t as perfect as America’s, and its level of freedom isn’t as broad as America. I also spent time in Hong Kong, and at that time England hadn’t yet given it back to China, and it was a very different place. It was Chinese people managing Chinese people, a really great place. My feeling was that, Singapore and Hong Kong are two places that have been managed extremely well, but their levels of freedom can obviously not compare to America. So, that’s something I really like about America. But due to the changes after 9/11, besides identifying myself even more with this country, I also felt a little worried. A part of what I’d come to value about this country had been taken away. I think part of the changes within the American government made me feel that I had returned to China, returned to the Cultural Revolution. Even though it wasn’t that broad, and wasn’t that deep, still, a lot of times I’m reminded of the experiences of my youth in China, of government meddling in every sort of thing. Actually, speaking generally, [America’s government] has become more encompassing, more powerful in its meddling in the lives of common people than the Chinese government. This is the thing that I fear most. Q: You’ve lived in different places, in mainland China, in Hong Kong, in America. Which place do you think of as your home, and which country do you feel that you are a member of? ZHANG: New York. That’s definite. Seven or eight years ago, the feeling wasn’t this passionate. In the past seven or eight years, very gradually, the feeling has become very strong. Why is that? Because each time I returned to my home, I felt like I was a visitor, because my community is already gone. Because China has developed very quickly, and Shanghai, where I grew up, where my parents had moved, they’ve torn up our home and moved around, and now the place they live has an excellent environment. But that environment is completely foreign to me. My classmates are gone, my friends are gone, my community is gone. I hadn’t been there, experiencing that whole period of development. So when I go back, I feel like a visitor, nothing else, just completely like a visitor. Each time I go, I’m really excited about going, but once I’m there, I want to come back even quicker. When I return to New York, I feel like it’s my home. New York is my home, not any other place in America. I really like Hong Kong, I really like Beijing, these are two other cities where I’ve spent a lot of time, and also Maine, Portland, Maine. But none of these places give me a feeling of home. My home is first of all New York, then Shanghai, and Shanghai is already a place where I feel like I am a visitor. That’s the complete and utter feeling I get. Q: Can you speak about your family? How many children do you have? What hope do you have for your future? ZHANG: I have one child. She came to America in 1997, and she’s developed here very well. This is another part of the American system that I really like. When she came, she couldn’t speak English, and we gave her lots of time. This was another reason why I wanted to start my own law firm, so that I could spend time at her side. I feel that no aspect of work is as important as raising a child. Let’s say I was extremely successful in my business, and yet raised my child very badly, or she had some kind of problem, I would think that I had failed. So, she’s been very successful up to now. When she came in April of 1997, she couldn’t speak even a little English, and yet she directly entered an American neighborhood. Half a year later, she took place in a test and tested into Bronx Science High School. Then after another half year, she graduated and went on to study. After she studied there, her grades were extremely good. We encouraged her to join her school’s debate team, and she was on the debate team’s A Squad. When she applied to colleges, there were about six that accepted her, University of Chicago, the Department of Economics, and then there was Brown University, Columbia University, Cornell University, Dartmouth College, and then MIT. Finally, she chose MIT. Right now, over there, she’s already a sophomore. Over there she chose to be an exchange student, so this year in October, she’s going to Cambridge, and will spend a year as an exchange student there. In two years, she’ll graduate. She too, she also really likes America. Over time, she has also begun to feel like a visitor in Shanghai. A few days ago, I discussed it with her, this year, during the summer, you can go to Taiwan and Hong Kong, because she’s really interested in Taiwan society, so she planned to go for three months, and to stop a little in Hong Kong. I asked her, “Do you want to go to Shanghai and see your grandparents a little?” They’ve become pretty old. She said she didn’t want to. I said, “Why don’t you want to go there?” She said, “I have no freedom there. They like to treat me as a child, and I have to be with them.” The way she feels when she goes back is the way I used to feel. Gradually, New York has become her home. After she studied in college, and also when she was studying in high school, I wanted to move to Queens, move to a different place. She didn’t want to. She said, “When I came to America, I lived at 78th Street and York Avenue, right here. This is my community. If you move, I won’t live with you.” So, that’s the reason I haven’t moved up to now. You can see that I feel that America is a great country for new immigrants. I’ve always said to her, you have to be thankful to this country. You can’t just take from it, you have to be like me, you have to think about what you can do for this community, and then go do it. That includes my professional work. I’ve done a lot of pro bono cases. With my clients, I don’t just think of money only. I help them. I told her, you have to be the same way. As an embryo, because you were born in under a one-child system, you were the only one, and could be more self-centered than a child emperor. When you came to America, you can’t just take everything from here, without giving anything back. This would be a life of failure. So, at the beginning of junior high, she began to work for a not-for-profit. One summer, she went to Hong Kong to do human rights, it was a worldwide human rights society, she helped them with the practical aspects of the group, and then she went to work in a hospital. I encouraged her to do it, if she didn’t go, I pushed her to go. So, you definitely have to pay back society. It’s not a matter of saying, I’m so smart and I can do anything, because this society has given you a lot. You have to see its good sides, you can’t absorb its bad qualities, and …. So, so far, we feel that our home is here, but we can’t completely chop off our natural connection to China, that’s something we can’t chop off. Q: What do you hope she does later in life? ZHANG: I hope that she does whatever she wants to do, and not follow some bad path. The good thing about America is that no matter what you might imagine, you can make your dream a reality. I think even when she was very little, she had a dream. We in our generation are definitely different from her. No matter how we think, we can’t think the same way as her, because of our age. We’re from a different generation. So I hope I don’t disturb her too much, but I also want to give her appropriate guidance. Whatever path she follows, if she enjoys it, I’ve got no problem, I will support her. Q: How old are you now? ZHANG: I was born in 1955, on June 26th, 1955, and I am 49 years old. Q: You’re very young. ZHANG: I think of it like this, this is a very exciting age. I can work hard and do a little more before I retire, on behalf of the community, on behalf of others, I can do anything. Q: You’ve come to America for such a long time, do you have any feelings about the Chinese community in New York? Is there any place that needs to be improved? ZHANG: The Chinese community has developed very quickly since I’ve come to America. I’m very happy to see that the Chinese community of today is different from the one that existed when I came to America. At that time, I felt that Cantonese was very powerful as a unifying force. But now you can see very easily, besides Cantonese, Mandarin Chinese is an even larger group. Besides people of Fujian descent, those that immigrated from Fuzhou, there are lots of immigrants from every place in China, from Shanghai, from Beijing. Our Flushing office has dealt with especially many clients who speak Mandarin, and even besides those from Taiwan who speak Mandarin, people from all over China all speak Mandarin. Now, the power of Chinese people is much greater. Our population numbers have certainly increased very much. But there’s still one problem, and that’s that we’re still not very unified in our approach to politics. If all the Chinese people could be a little more unified, regardless of whether you’re from China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Canton [Guangdong], Fujian, Shanghai, Wenzhou, if everyone could unify, then we could send someone from our community to City Council, or send the person to run for the New York State Senate or House, or send them to run for the school board, and send them everywhere, and make our voice heard. For one thing, that would be great for the development of the Chinese community. Chinatown is a pretty unique organization. I think that Chinatown, this organization, it ought to unite Chinese organizations with different backgrounds, because a lot of the people who came from Taiwan, mainland China, Hong Kong, just like our backgrounds, they had really good backgrounds even before they came over here. We should completely incorporate this group of people into Chinatown, and completely break through the traditions of Chinatown, the reliance on traditional immigrants, and that would be a really great development. Even now, I have seen the Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association, the United Chinese Organization, all kinds have already started forming, it’s already developing in an excellent direction, but it’s not fast enough. I think that we should push this organization forward even faster, because Chinatown, New York is already part of American culture. It’s not a part of China’s culture. New York’s Chinatown is an extremely important part of New York. If there wasn’t any Chinatown in New York, the change to all of New York might be even greater than what occurred from the loss of the twin towers, all of New York would be different. So, this is something we Chinese residents of New York can be very proud of, but the development has not gone far enough. It should be more united, it should bring together people of every background, put them together in the same organization, not fight with each other, and everyone do as much as they can do. That way, our strength would be really great. In a country like America, if you have something good, they will notice you. All you need to do is lift up your voice, and you’ll be noticed, but right now our voices are too scattered, although the progress has been great. Q: What kind of plan do you have for the rest of your life? ZHANG: My plan for the rest of my life is like this, when I first came to America, my principle was, I want to do my best to separate myself from Chinatown. So I lived on 77th Street, and I didn’t live in a Chinese community. As far as what changes will take place during the rest of my life, two things are increasingly clear. First, to the limit of my abilities, I will develop my law firm to better serve the community. Whatever I can do, I will do. Secondly, to the limit of my abilities, I will use the background and knowledge that I gained previously in China together with the background and knowledge that I gained in America to help increase relations between China and America. In this area, I can do much more. These two areas, I can do a lot more. I have already started working in these areas. I think that before I retire, in these two areas, I can do a lot. I can do things for the community, for the relationship between China and America, using the knowledge I have towards both sides. This is what I want to do. Q: What future do you see for China? And it’s interaction with America? ZHANG: As far as China’s future, or its relationship, interacting with America, I think it will always be good. Along the way, there will be a lot of endless problems, and that’s because of the Taiwan issue. But that isn’t something for us to be concerned about. Speaking as Chinese people, regardless of whether you come from Taiwan or come from somewhere in China, we don’t think in that way. My daughter wants to go to Taiwan, and I completely encourage her to go. I also think about going to Taiwan, but I don’t have the time. I think the reason that the relationship between China and America will be good is that, outside of the Taiwan issue, there really isn’t any major problems. China and America have no quarrels. Besides one Chinese person at the time that I came to the US, all around me, in my circle, my friends, there’s nobody who dislikes America. We were all academics. Even if we didn’t like the US, we would then dislike Japan and the Soviet Union even more, or the Russia of today. We don’t have any problem with America. So I think the two sides will have more and more interaction, and it will be better all the time. Problems will always be there, but in regard to the economic relationship and such, America and China will become the world’s best partners, and will even replace the close relationship between America and Japan. I think after the Taiwan issue is solved, then everything must trend in that direction. Q: What advice do you have for current government officials, or for the Chinese community, what do you think could be done to better solve some of the problems since 9/11? ZHANG: Speaking of the community, the problems after 9/11 could be handled better. Regardless of the organization, they need to get rid of their biases, and everyone needs to communicate better. Right now, it doesn’t matter what group you belong to, what your past history was. Chinese organizations have a habit of thinking that a bunch of small cliques are better. I think that these cliques, regardless of whether they are Cantonese people, mainland Chinese, people from Taiwan, regardless of where they’re from, we should break through these cliques, and lift up our voices. We don’t want to have one group saying one thing and another group saying something entirely different. When two groups have different opinions, we need them to communicate, and after communication, both sides should yield. It would be best for us to raise up one voice together. In the time before and after I retire, I will work towards this goal. I’ve written many articles for Xing-Dao Daily News, and yet I don’t have a Cantonese background. I’ve only spent a few years working in Hong Kong, and that’s not because I’m some Chinese-American who’s been here a long time. I’m from Taishan, and yet I’m leaving that completely aside to speak up. I hope that everyone follows this same path, tries to serve the community, do more to serve the community. Leave lots of bias to the side. I still have lots of hope. If people with our kind of background can encourage others, and encourage ourselves too, and if we take part in society, I feel certain that a much more powerful voice will come forth from our community. The important thing is, we have to do something concrete. The relationship between China and America is the same way, I will use all my knowledge to serve the communities, on both sides. Q: Thank you for your time. ZHANG: You’re welcome. Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh) 問：這裏是美洲華人歷史博物館，紐約華埠9/11的口述歷史訪問。今天我們請到了張中越律師做訪問，訪問人是我吳翊菁。張律師，你可以講一下，你是什麽時候從大陸來到美國的？ 張：我是1989年3月19日到達美國的。來美國的原因是美國的一個學術委員會讓我來參加一個國際會議，這個國際會議的主題是關於跨國公司在全球的經營。那麽我的主題是寫有關美國跨國公司在中國的直接投資，它的行爲模式，和日本的跨國公司在中國的投資和歐洲的跨國公司在中國投資的研究。那個研究是我自己的研究領域。我在中國的復旦大學待了十四年，包括讀本科，在那裏教書，然後又讀了碩士研究生，是世界經濟領域的。當中我接觸了大量的西方經濟學的理論，然後我又到了北京大學，作爲訪問學者去了一年，是在1980年至1981年。在這個期間，我中間參加了中國西方經濟學的研究會，當時我是最年輕的一個會員。因爲那個原因，我因爲有復旦大學及北京大學的背景，我有機會接觸到中國當時最好的一個學術領域，特別是對西方經濟學和海外直接投資這個領域，有機會可以進行些研究。我的本科是讀英美語言文學的。在1977年初畢業的時候，當時中國很少有讀了四年出來的大學生，我是在復旦大學的英美語言文學系。初出的目的，他們是培養我們做外交官的，派到各個駐外的使館和領館。 從秘書開始，因爲得有語言的基礎，從三秘、二秘，一路培養下去。但是因爲77年的外交調整，我們畢業以後就留在學校裏了。留到學校裏之後，我就開始學經濟學。一面做老師，一面在經濟系聽課，所以有機會接觸到中國當時最好的經濟系和經濟課程設置的重心。 問：你覺得你念文學是你自己的興趣吧？ 張：念文學不是自己的興趣。因爲我在大學讀書的時候，那時還是在文化大革命當中，那是在1972年年底。當時的中國的大學，因爲文革的時候全部關閉了，剛剛開始。我們大概是唯一的一批從中學直接進到大學的，全國大概只有600個人。 問：你那時候在上海？ 張：在上海復旦大學，對。 問：那你就算是第五代了？ 張：第五代，第幾代的演算法都不是很相同，應該我比第五代再早一點。 問：那你覺得念文學跟念經濟是兩個很不同的領域？ 張：文學和經濟是完全不同的領域。文學的話，你的想象力要很豐富，你的文學的背景要很好，你的思維要有一種比較豐富的，跟現實不同的一種想象力。 但是經濟學的很多東西跟science（科學）結合在一起，你要有很好的邏輯思維。除了你對社會的現實要有很多的瞭解，理論上也要有很多的研究，要跟數學和科學領域有很大的聯繫。所以它們兩個基本上是不同的領域。 問：你覺得哪一個你比較喜歡，還是說它們是互補的？ 張：我一開始進去讀英美語言文學的時候，我並沒有覺得因爲我喜歡我才進去，就是因爲他們選了我我才進去的。因爲我們每個中學在上海最多只有一個名額，有的名額還沒有。我的中學是一個很好的一個中學，格致中學。這個格致中學到現在爲止的歷史大概有150年，在清朝的時候已經設置了。當時我記得我們的同學有一千多個，就去了我一個。不是憑我的興趣，而是他們叫我去的。讀了以後，慢慢慢慢我覺得我對文學就很有興趣了。那麽畢業以後爲什麽可以轉經濟學呢？因爲我當時覺得，一個男同學畢業以後做老師，一直教英語，這只是一個工具。那麽我希望把英語作爲我的工具，而不是一個主要的專業。這樣的話，我可以在其他專業上有很大的優勢，我可以用英語讀很多的書。那麽正好到經濟系實習，我就對經濟有興趣了。總的來講，我對經濟學非常有興趣，對它的興趣要超過以前對文學的興趣。 問：你在文革以後可以念書，你覺得是很幸運嗎？你父母、你家裏怎麽看? 張：我在文革當中能讀書是非常之幸運的。因爲中國的中學生裏面，可能是幾百萬裏面， 只有我們六百個每一年可以進去。那是歷史時期的一種特殊的産物吧。我們家裏當時也很開心，因爲我爸爸媽媽都沒有讀過大學。我媽媽是八歲開始就出來做童工的，我爸爸是十四歲就出來做童工的。他們的認識就是因爲他們在做工的時候一起在戲院裏面賣糖果。其實我父母的家庭以前，民國之前，都是很大的家庭；但是因爲中國社會的變化，家庭都敗落了。他們當然很開心我能讀大學。 問：你有其他的兄弟姐妹嗎？ 張：我有一個弟弟。 問：他在做什麽？ 張：他在上海黃浦區的一個政府部門工作。 問：那張先生，你來到美國以後，你對美國的第一個印象是什麽？爲什麽你後來想留下來呢？ 張：初出來的時候我並沒有想要留下來，因爲在那兒的職業﹑那兒的工作﹑那兒的機會都是很好。但是因爲---，來的原因是，當時我的論文，我就隨便送了一篇報告過來。我說我想要參加這個會議，因爲國內有好幾個很出名的專家教授。有一個是中山大學經濟學院的院長，他是哈佛大學畢業的，是康橋大學畢業的，那是四十年代的時候。我在三﹑四次國際會議的場合碰到他。因爲當時我年齡相對比較小，英文比較好，所以直接可以閱讀大量的經濟學的著作。因爲我在復旦大學和北京大學的關係，當年接觸到這些最先進的資料。他跟我說，你應該出去，把你的觀點跟其他學者交流一下， 因爲正好你出來的時候處於中國開始改革，開始吸收外資的時候；那麽你的一手資料和你的知識可能跟外國的學者不是很一樣，這樣出去的話會對你對我們這個國家都很好。所以因爲那樣的原因，他就給了我一個資訊說，那一年，88年的3月份紐約國際會議是有關跨國公司的，是登在美國一本雜誌上面的。那麽我在87年的10月份就寫了一封信給他們，說我有興趣參加你們這個會。他們說你報一個題目過來，那我就報一個題目，說美國跨國公司在中國的直接投資，它的行爲模式和日本和歐洲公司的比較。因爲我在這個領域裏面的研究當時在中國是很前面的，特別是我對日本跨國公司在中國的直接投資。當時中國國內很少有人說日本有什麽理論的，跨國公司的直接投資；我說它有，它跟歐洲，跟美國不一樣。所以因爲我的這篇論文，很多人都知道我。我給那個組織委員會寫了一封信，他們就馬上給我復信，說你這個題目的本身就是對我們的會議的一個貢獻，沒有這樣的題目過來，希望你趕緊把論文寫過來。所以我就在10月份把這個論文用英文打好後送到委員會，他們就邀請我了。但是在邀請我的時候，我說我當時得不到資助，因爲我當時已是講師以上的一個角色，他們已經在等待批我的副教授。當時因爲年輕的副教授很難批的，我已經都報上去了，等我這次出國回去以後就要批給我了。因爲我出版了不少著作，西方經濟學的書，所以來的時候沒有準備好要來。他們邀請我過來的話，我就跟他們講我在這方面的知識。 問：那爲什麽你留下來？ 張：留下來是因爲來了之後我就覺得接觸了很多學者，我想只來幾天的話，可能對美國不會瞭解很多。儘管我花了十幾年的功夫學了大量的有關東方和西方的經濟學，教了好幾年的書，我覺得應該稍微留下來再看一下，看看這個社會到底跟我們以前書上看到的、大量接觸的有什麽不同。那麽只是幾天的功夫的話，我會覺得比較困難。第二個原因是，費用全部是我自己出的，來的飛機票什麽的都是我自己出的。大會給了我一部份的補貼，就是旅館的費用，因爲通常是不會給補貼的，給了我幾天旅館費用。那麽我就簽證，一下子就出來了，想稍微住久一點。住了一陣子以後，有一些另外的原因，可能與我原來的學校不是很開心。那麽這樣的話就造成我住更久一點，就這樣住下來了。 問：辦這個會議的組織是哪一個？ 張：辦這個會議的組織是美國企業管理協會，美國國務院下面委託Hofstra University在長島的，組織的一個非常高層次的國際會議。 問：那你來以後在紐約住在哪里？ 張：開會以後，出來以後，我什麽情況都不瞭解，我只是想出來看一下這個世界到底怎麽回事。當時身上錢並不是很多，跟當時在Hofstra University的留學生，有一個是法---，我都不認識他們。一位是法學院的，一位是經濟系的，一位是數學系的。他們說長島其實離紐約很近，紐約是一個非常不同的地方。 他們說你就是坐長途汽車，然後坐Subway（地鐵），就可以直接到紐約。那裏有報紙，你可以看一下，有很大的中國人的社區。這樣的話呢，我就把兩個箱子寄在那個學校裏面，然後就坐Bus，然後坐Subway到紐約。 問：你來到紐約，你的第一個印象是什麽？ 張：來紐約的時候，當時我有很多不同的感想。第一，我經濟上沒有多少的費用，我當時身邊只有29塊美金。原因是我出來的時候是自費，當時國內的收入是比較有限。我們也沒有可能說自己有很多的外幣，不可以有外幣的。所以出來的時候我借了一部份同學的錢，因爲他們到美國來過，他們有積蓄在那邊，他們借了美金給我。我買了飛機票，把主要的生活費用基本cover一下，然後到紐約只有29塊錢了。那麽第二的話呢，假如不到唐人街來的話，其他地方他們都說會很困難。因爲儘管當時語言文學學了很久，也教過英語，但是不知道我講的語言跟美國本地講的語言能不能溝通，能不能很方便。所以都是很大的距離在那邊，所以一下就走到了唐人街。來的第一天，我不知道住在哪里，他們說，你買一份報紙，有世界日報，當時還有中報和其他的報紙。你可以去---，上面有找工作﹑租房子的。我就這樣沒有朋友，沒有親戚，就過來。我記得來了以後，一下從地鐵出來以後，我坐在Mott Street和Canal Street的交口這個地方。第一個感覺是，啊，這麽多中國人的東西、招牌，走的人全部是中國人，覺得很親切。馬上又感到很陌生，因爲當時看到的中國人很多，很少人講我本地的語言，上海話，很少人講普通話，或者是說國語，都是講廣東話。廣東話我一個字都聽不懂。所以坐在那兒的話，第三個，有點彷徨。 身上沒有錢，不知道第一天住在哪里，然後工作在什麽地方找。所以，那個街頭我坐了大概是半個小時，我吃了兩個雞蛋。這個雞蛋是在Hofstra University他們幾個私派的留學生出來之後給我帶出來的，說，你去看怎麽樣？所以，第一天就是這樣到紐約來的。來了以後，我就從唐人街一直在找工作，每個餐館去問有沒有工作可以做。找到工作的話，我可以靠自己的能力，或者是到學校裏讀書或者先安定下來。所以一直從中國街每個餐館找，他們說，你會不會講廣東話？我說，不會。那麽他們說，就不可以了，你不講廣東話，不能溝通，就沒有工作機會。我一路從唐人街走到Upper Westside，往西邊走，走到了第八大道左右的57街，走進了一家中國餐館。我一路看到中國餐館我就進去問他們，那麽這時候見到了一位先生，挺不錯的一位先生，他是從中國山東來的。他在那個飯店裏面，我記得那個飯店叫“湖南園”吧，做外賣經理。他說，你這個人看起來是新到這個地方，什麽地方來的？我說，我是從上海來的。他說，我們裏面有一位送外賣的先生，是上海人，我幫你跟他介紹一下，看你是好像沒有個地方落腳，先進來給你吃一頓飯吧！ 我在他們飯店裏面吃的飯，我記得當時他給我吃了芥蘭牛和湯，然後給了我五塊錢的quarters。他說，你就用這個錢去打電話，到處打電話找你的朋友。我說，我說我沒有朋友在這邊，我也沒有親戚在這邊。他說，你反正找工作什麽都可以。我說，我怎麽謝你，我都不認識你，你也對我這麽好，特別是第一天，我都不知道住在什麽地方。他說，都不要緊，以後你假如能成功的話，請我吃頓飯就可以了。但到現在爲止，我也不知道這位先生在哪里。在這個店裏面，有一個上海來的先生出來了，他比我年輕。 他看了我一眼之後，他說，這樣吧，我看你這個人挺好的，我住在皇后區，這個地方叫Rego Park。他住在很小的一個地下室，basement，房租也是很便宜。我估計你也不會有錢，你就跟我一起住吧，然後你找到地方，你就搬出去。所以，那天我就跟他回到了Rego Park皇后區那個地方。住的地方是很小，這個房間除了放一張床，旁邊比床大一點的位置就沒有了。他說，這樣吧，他把床的床墊拉下來，他睡在床墊上，我就睡在spring box上面。在那個上面睡了三個月，當時也不知道，因爲沒有錢，很緊張，說要去買個床的話又會很貴。初出來的話，都很緊張，所以在那個上面整整睡了三個月。以後就開始找工作，找工作就是因爲那位上海的先生，他叫陳建新，Jason，非常好的一個年輕人，他說，這樣，我幫你介紹。我就開始慢慢慢慢在餐館裏面開始送外賣。同時，我唯一沒想到的是，他說，你完全可以---，因爲你是B-1 Visa進來的，你可以申請轉成學生身份。我說，我可以，但是我沒有人幫我做擔保。他說，我來幫你做擔保。他因爲家庭有很多人移民在美國和加拿大，他就轉了一大筆錢到我的銀行裏面。我跟他認識都差不多只有一兩個星期，轉到我銀行裏面八千多塊錢。這樣的話我就自己找了一個Kaplan，那個英語學校，就去轉學生身份，然後在那裏學語言。就這樣轉成功了，所以那兩位，特別是後面那一位是非常不容易的，我非常感謝他。 問：那張先生，好像你以前在大陸是教書的，而且工作都比較好，沒那麽辛苦吧？那你來到這裏要從底做起，要可能做餐館。這個落差應該很大，你自己怎麽去適應？ 張：這個落差非常之大，要比所有的文字寫出來，你怎麽描寫它大的話，都可能不一定很確切地能把當時的落差表現出來。我在大陸的環境相對來講非常不錯，我的機遇都是不錯的，然後我做的工作都已經到了很好的程度。我到美國來並不是因爲我的環境不好，我過來要換環境，主要是我剛才說的兩個原因。一個是，從少到大，我處在中國一個變化最大的時刻，從很封閉，從共產黨各個方面都管制得很緊，到慢慢慢慢政府開始在經濟上放鬆了，開始對外面開放了。變化非常之大的時候，所以我有一種urge，特別是我學的是英美語言文學和西方的經濟學。我有這個衝動，我一直想出來看一下我以前學的東西是不是跟這兒教的東西，或者跟這個社會是一回事？這是一個非常重大的一個衝動。我其實在88年之前的十年裏面，每一年我都有機會出來，到美國，到歐洲去。因爲我當時畢業的時候沒有21歲的大學生，英語在國內相對來講已經是正式專業畢業的，而且是在復旦大學，全國就是六百個。那麽，我申請留學任何時候都是可以的。當時沒有申請留學的原因是我覺得中國開始變化了。假如我出去讀英美語言文學的話，除了語言我什麽都不懂，國內變化這個過程完全我就失去了。以後再回國來，到中國來工作的話，我就是完全不瞭解中國的人了。所以我就轉學經濟學，瞭解社會，很大的參予；這十年裏面我沒有來。所以，我出來並不是因爲我以前的環境不好，但是我的衝動可能要比以前在中國環境不好，想出來換一個環境的那種衝動更大，理由是我已經是一個知識份子了。知識份子的那個想象力和那種激情可能要比其他不同的階層的人更天真，所以我這個天真的想象力是我非常重大的一個衝力。 當然也有一點其他的原因，但都不是很重要。 問：那你來到美國以後，你覺得你看到的美國跟你以前課本上念的美國或者想象的美國有什麽不一樣？ 張：我看到的美國，這樣說吧，我看到的紐約，我覺得跟美國其他地方不一樣。因爲我第一站是停在---，我進美國的第一站是在San Francisco，舊金山。機場裏面待了四個小時，轉飛機就到了Washington DC。在舊金山的時候，海關的官員和移民局的官員都很客氣，都很友好。我也有看到亞洲人的面孔，我覺得可能是有一種比較親近感，沒有那麽的陌生。到了Washington DC，我以爲是美國管理學會的會長會派人來接我，因爲我帶了上海市汪道涵的一封信，跟他們來討論在中國舉行一個國際會議的事情。我帶了他的信來的，沒想到他到義大利出差去了，沒有收到我這個傳真。所以我在飛機場裏面就很緊張，沒人來接我，我也不知道出去怎麽走，那麽就在機場裏面睡了一個晚上。當時緊張到什麽地步呢？因爲完全是一個全新的國家，沒有亞洲人的面孔，有兩三個不同族裔的，有黑人的少數民族，有西班牙語系的少數民族，大概四﹑五個人在機場候機室裏面等著。我是唯一的一個亞洲人，我當時有一點怕，心情有一點怕。所以一晚上睡在那裏面，一晚上沒出去，反正二十分鐘醒一下，十五分鐘醒一下，擔心行李不要給人家拿掉，不知道會發生什麽情況。第二天一早碰到一個清潔工，機場的清潔工，他看起也來是一個黑人和白人結合的一個民族。他說，你這樣的情況下，我給你兩個quarter，你打電話找你的朋友。那時候，我有一個George Washington University，一個中國教授的電話，我就打給他。他說， 喔，你已經來了！他就來接我了。所以那個人我也是很感謝他的，儘管給了我兩個quarter，但是我就可以跟外面的朋友聯繫上，所以一下就把我接出去了。 問：張先生，你可以講一下在紐約你從餐館做起，那你怎麽後來變成一個律師呢？中間有什麽故事？ 張：紐約做餐館是這樣，我初出時讀書讀語言文學---，在Kaplan讀語言，我想把英語提高一下。儘管我們學了很多的英語，跟這兒美國人講的英語還是有一點區別。我可以跟人家溝通，沒什麽問題，我可以發表演講。但我現在回過頭去想，那個時候的英文是以中國學校裏面學出來的爲主，和在這兒生活一段以後的英文應該是不一樣的。儘管現在的英文和以前非常之不一樣，但是我還是感覺到和美國土生土長的美國人相比的話還是有區別。當時學了以後，就過來看了一下這個社會，就覺得在紐約的Chinatown這個地方可能不一定適合我。不適合我的原因是我不會講廣東話，不知道怎麽融合進去。所以讀語言是在57街Westside，然後做一點送外賣的工，讀了一陣以後就覺得好像是光讀語言的話跟我以前讀的書不太符合，我應該是走回我的專業。所以我就申請到City University of New York, Graduate Center，申請它的經濟學博士，PhD program in Economics。那個主任非常好。他說，你是復旦大學畢業，而且有碩士學位，我就完全承認你的學分。36個學分都承認，就錄取我了。錄取我以後，我就讀了一個學期的PhD in Economics。但是突然一下錢就用光了，打工打來的錢，學費要自己交，讀書的時候又不能做工，學費一下沒有了。就很緊張，所以又出來做工， 在82街Second Avenue第二大道做外賣經理。做了以後和幾個中國出來的教授，都是年輕的，聽他們說，在五個街口之外，有一個餐館要賣掉，然後說去看一下吧。就這樣一看的話一個星期之後就把那個餐館合夥賣下來了，在85街第3大道，就這樣一下進入這個餐館。餐館的工作很辛苦，因爲你有很大的responsibility。一個主要的考慮是我覺得在中國我們沒有這個商業環境，所以我要做生意精明一下，那麽可能對美國社會一下就會熟悉進來了。當時除了買餐館的時候請了一個律師之外，其他所有的事情都是我們自己做的。申請衛生牌照，各種各樣的license都是我們自己做。所以當時做的時候我就說，我做十年五年，我一定要重新回學校。做的時候就是這樣考慮的，所以就做進去了。做得非常辛苦，第一年七天沒有休息。當時身體很好，因爲30歲出頭，我讀書的時候鍛煉得很多，身體也是很好，所以精力沒有問題，睡覺睡得少也沒有問題。就是當時有一種衝動，就是想做成一個事業瞭解這裏的社會，所以就這樣進去了。那麽現在叫我再進去的話，照那樣做的話，我就不一定會有這些了。 問：那你在那個餐館做了多久？ 張：餐館是從89年的年底開始一直做到93年的時候，93年還是94年就賣出去了。我當時決定要去讀法學院的時候餐館還在，我讀了一個學期又回來，把餐館賣了，再回去讀法學院。大概差不多做了4年左右。 問：那後來你爲什麽那麽有興趣在這裏當律師？ 張：當律師的事情是這樣，因爲讀法學院的故事很有趣，怎麽有趣呢？當時我跟我太太在商量，回去讀書的話要讀什麽好？因爲我儘管是很幸運，我在文化大革命當中有機會上大學，但同時也受到了文化革命對教育衝擊的一種副作用，或者一種影響。什麽影響呢？因爲中學的時候很多學校都沒有規則了，上學的課程都打亂了，文革之前的正規的基礎教育都沒有了。所以我們的數理化學得非常之少，所以我回去讀書的話我是讀經濟學，當時考慮到讀經濟學，美國很多學校都有數理化的東西在裏面，特別是數學的模式。這樣的話，我說這不是我的特長，我任何專業要去讀的話我希望避開數學，數學沒有正式地訓練過。所以這樣的話選擇就不是很多，除了經濟學以外，你可以選歷史History，你可以選Administration行政的，你可以選政治學Politics，你可以學法學。那天晚上我記得很清楚，我說讀什麽比較好呢？我們就flip the coin。一個quarter flip上去，head or tail。假如是head，我們就去讀法學院。最後是head，就決定讀法學院，就這樣去了。 問：你是跟你太太一塊去念的嗎？ 張：我自己一個人念的。 問：你太太是後來從大陸過來的嗎？還是在這邊--- 張：她是比我來得早，她是在做不同的專業。 問：你們是怎麽認識的？ 張：在紐約認識的。 問：讀法學院以後，你什麽時候開自己的律師樓？ 張：讀了法學院96年畢業之前，我花了3年---。我在University of Maine, School of Law讀法學的。我最後一年是作爲visiting student to Brooklyn Law School，因爲我的家在紐約，我希望回到紐約，我太太也在紐約。所以當時就申請Brooklyn Law School作爲visiting student，它是一個私立的法學院。所以96年畢業之後，就停在紐約了。在紐約的時候，當時並沒有覺得自己要出來開律師事務所,因爲我所有的背景都是跟大公司﹑大的學校﹑大的機構有關係的。特別是讀法學院當中，每一年我都要到香港去，作爲training或者是作爲intern，幫香港的兩家非常好的律師事務所做一些法律上面的工作。他們請我去的原因是因爲我對中國的制度，對中國的法律很熟，我又在美國讀法學，我對香港的情況也是比較熟，因爲我到美國來之前寫過幾篇文章。當時說香港今後和中國今後的變化會是怎麽樣，是中國大陸對香港的影響更大一點呢，還是香港的影響對中國大陸更大一點，我有很深入的研究。所以他們請我去是做IPO股票上市的一部份的工作，他們是幫中國的公司在香港股票交易事務所做H股的上市，做評估和做很多underwriting。那麽我是幫他們做reorganization(重組)裏面這部分，他們要用我的expertise(專才)在這個領域去看，這個deal可不可以通過，重組的話怎麽弄。所以幫他們---，直接我是對他們的management負責，儘管我當時還沒畢業。所以，我每年夏天的時候，從94年開始，94、95、96年都有去，有一年的冬天都去。兩個律師事務所一個是“Deacons Graham and James，”是香港最大的，第一個firm。另外一個是一個Top 5 London City firm, called “Simmons & Simmons。”那一段時間對香港的很多情況就開始熟悉起來。 問：那你是一開始就從事辦移民申請的案件嗎？還是有做別的？ 張：那個時候完全是做公司法的，corporate，我沒有想到要從事移民或其他什麽。但是在1997年有個情況變化，我畢業以後不久，我的女兒從中國上海移民過來。因爲我是在95年就申請成爲美國公民了，那麽我就把她申請到美國來。她來了以後我就覺得我在大的公司裏面做的話要花費大量的時間，我沒有時間take care她。她來的時候是13歲，這樣的時候是一個年齡很重要的時候，所以我就要花更多的時間和她在一起。那個時候我就第一次想，我出來自己做吧。以前都不喜歡自己出來做的，那麽自己出來做的話跟我以前做的法律就完全不同了。所以我就辭掉了我那時候在美國大的律師事務所工作的機會，到了一家專門做意外傷害的律師事務所。挺好的一個New York City firm，在Vesey Street，在中國人的社區裏面也是很出名的。作爲它的華裔律師，專門打意外傷害的官司。我的工資降低了非常非常地多，我就是想有很多的experience，上法庭的經驗。所以在那兒做了十個月，天天上法庭，大量地接觸了中國的客人，代表律師事務所，意外傷害和工傷的。十個月之後我就---，1998年十月份我就自己出來開律師事務所，99年初正式開始了。開始以後我做的業務是general practice，因爲你一個人出來的話是一個人的律師事務所，solo practitioner。開始就是我一個人，移民我也做，公司法也做，離婚也做，刑事糾紛的也做，總的來說是一個general practice。相對來講在中國人的社區移民的比較多，占到了50％以上。 問：那你覺得你做移民申請有什麽挑戰嗎？而且我想美國移民政策一直在改變，對你的生意有什麽影響？ 張：我剛剛出來的時候，我的幾個已經在外面做律師的朋友跟我說，比較困難，市場很緊張。 原因是我99年初出來，98年年底出來，99年年初之前，正好有幾撥新的移民法從96年開始有改革。1996年之前非常容易做，律師也不是很多，移民法很寬鬆。96年以後有了很大的改變，97年，98年，因爲97年的改變又給當時的律師帶來很多機會。我出來的時候已經沒有什麽現成的新的移民法，律師也很多，挑戰性就很大。舉一個例子，在96年、97年新的移民法改革以後，移民法裏面有一條規定，申請政治庇護必須要在進入美國一年之內提出來，不提出來以後就沒有機會了，除非你有很強的理由告訴法庭爲什麽這個一年的限制對你不適用。這個限制要求是很嚴格的，突然你的國家發生變化，美國的法律發生變化，或者有很多很多非常例外的情況發生，你才可以提出政治庇護。在96、97年之前，隨時隨地你可以提出來，你進入這個國家五年、十年都可以的。總的來說，移民法就是越來越緊。我出來的時候是在移民法越來越緊張的時候出來的。當時很多中國的客戶，特別是從福建來的，他們有很多移民的問題來問；但是當時的事機並不是很好，競爭也是很激烈。 問：你可以講一下這個行業嗎？這個華人律師在紐約的行業？在你來這裏這麽多年有什麽變化？ 張：律師行業的變化很大。在我開業，98年年底開業以後的一個最大的變化是2000年底到2001年的4月底之中，當時的總統，克林頓總統，簽署了一個行政命令，讓很多本來是非法的移民可以拿到移民法的福利。我們通常稱它是245(i)。245(i)就是一種特赦，不是一個全面的特赦。它給在2000年12月底之前已經進入美國的，沒有被驅逐出境的，沒有法庭程式的一個機會提出移民的申請； 但你要證明2000年12月底你已經在美國。這個申請必須要在2001年4月30日之前提出，你可以提出申請勞工紙，親屬的移民，各種各樣的移民，只要是合法都可以提出來。提出來以後，儘管過了2001年4月30日，因爲你在這個之前提出，你就有那個福利了。這個福利就是，你在2001年4月30日之前提出的申請不批准，那麽你以後再提出其他的移民案件申請假如能批准的話，就可以讓你合法地在美國調整身份，不需要到國外去調整身份。那個時候是一個業務非常忙的時候，除了這個之外，整個移民法在往下調整。2001年4月30日的245(i)實行了之後，整個移民律師，整個新移民都是很開心。因爲覺得美國的政策在放鬆，給很多非法進來的人一種機會，讓他們在這裏提出調整身份。受益的人可能有幾百萬，我們中國人社區受益也是很大。我們事務所當時的發展就是在這一撥245(i)新的法律裏面一下子發展起來的，很多很多的業務就是這樣過來的。原因是我們調整的比較快，我們對新移民法的理解比較快。很多律師事務所失去了這樣的一個機會；他們覺得這個東西不要去搞它，沒有做，就失去了這個機會。所以有一批律師事務所就一下膨脹起來，我們算是其中的一個。一下子律師事務所的規模大了，客戶的規模也大了。當然在這裏面就學到很多新的東西，很多新的挑戰，因爲我們在1998年之前沒有做自己的律師事務所。在這個移民法以後一直會覺得新一撥的245(i)會重新再出來，克林頓總統會簽名，說延長這樣一個法律。這個對新移民，特別對我們中國的移民，新移民，沒有身份的，是非常之好的，可以得到它的好處。然後，總統選舉之前他沒有簽署行政命令。當時新的總統，布希總統上臺之後，他已經答應了，說這個命令要簽署。他跟國會已經提出了，國會的參議院和衆議院都已經討論了，沒有問題，會簽的，把這個法案延遲下去，讓後來的人或者當時沒有機會申請的人重新申請。9/11爆發了，整個移民法都改變了。這個改變就是向非常保守的方向改變。所以這個以後的整個移民法的改變對新移民，不管是非法的，特別是偷渡的，等於設置了非常多的障礙。因爲9/11以後的變化，移民法的收緊， 各種背景調查，各種新的移民法的頒佈，給特別是非法偷渡的移民帶來了很多的困難。我覺得從我們的業務當中來看，偷渡的人減少了。以前大量的偷渡的人來，因爲美國移民法修整以後，不讓你這麽容易申請政治庇護，或是不讓你這麽容易可以直接地通過很複雜的法庭程式來得到好處，那麽他們來的就相對比較少。舉一個例子來說，以前的移民法的上訴都要好幾年的時間才會有結果下來，一個上訴案子都是要由三個移民上訴庭的法官合議了之後，判決下來才可以的，兩個支援，一個反對，那麽兩個人的意見就占上峰了。那麽這樣的話要五、六年或四、五年的時間，都是很正常的。一個好處是在你上訴還沒有決定的這幾年時間你就是合法在這裏的。你可以做工，沒有人會抓你或者怎麽樣。那麽，9/11前後，9/11前面就已經開始考慮變了，9/11以後就變了。上訴法庭很多的法官就被解除職務了，換到其他地方去了。現在只有一個法官就可以定上訴案贏或者輸。他們大量加快這樣的一個程式，討論也沒有這麽仔細。所以否定移民的案例，第一是非常之多，比以前多很多，第二是非常之快。所以整得新移民很困難。 問：你可以講一下你高峰期，也就是克林頓那個時期，你的客戶大概有多少？跟現在9/11之後比一下減了多少？ 張：這樣說吧，我沒有一個統計說，高峰期的客戶有多少。高峰期的時候，我每天都要上法庭的。政治庇護的申請，我每天至少一個法庭。最多的一天我記得是七個法庭，四個不同的法官。我跑來跑去，跑來跑去，好像一天不到移民法庭去上庭的話，就會覺得空很多。現在呢，假如一個星期裏面有兩、三次法庭 已經是很忙了。就是，一個星期裏面有一、二、三次法庭，不管是否在一天，或者是在一起，都是很忙了。很明顯的是，這個我可以告訴你，變化是很清楚的。政治庇護的申請大量地減少，減少的程度在我們的業務裏面是95％。什麽樣的原因造成政治庇護案件的減少？因爲偷渡進來的案件減少了。通常我們的政治庇護假如說是客人來請我們幫他做擔保，有親戚在這邊說，能擔保出來，不要讓他在裏面，他出來之後會做政治庇護。那麽你假如是偷渡進來，被政府拘禁了，就是關在裏面的人少了，自然政治庇護提出來的人也少。所以更多的變化是我們的 50％的案子是把客人從移民監獄裏面合法地擔保出來的業務，50％都沒有了。和9/11之前比，就有這麽大的變化。 問：那你怎麽去調整你的業務呢？ 張：第一，儘管我們的業務少，它對你現在的影響還沒有這麽大，原因是你從非法入境到你法庭程式的結束少則一、兩年，多則三、四年。從移民局的程式到法庭的程式，一庭一庭上下來，到上訴結束，總歸是這樣。所以你現在的影響實際上是兩年前政策的改變到現在才會體現出來。所以，我們現在還是有一部分的案子以前過來的，還沒結束。那麽，從現在開始沒有的話，我可以預計兩年以後這類的案子基本是相對非常之少了。我們的調整是這樣，我們儘量幫助---。因爲儘管是法律改變得很緊張，但是還是有很多不同的移民案子，我們繼續還是做，假如有合法擔保的話我們會做。合法政治庇護申請的話，我們還是做。我們以前做的很多的客戶，政治庇護案件成功了，綠卡申請成功了， 他們有很多新的案子會出來。他們的親戚朋友的移民，父母姐妹的移民；然後他們穩定了以後，他們要買房子，他們要做生意，他們都會回來找我們的。9/11以前我們做的filing做得不是很多，就是說親屬移民，結婚的移民。從2003年之前開始，我們就很注意這方面的情況，我們在這個領域已經是做得非常成功的。幫助大量的親屬移民，跟政治庇護沒有關係的這種移民，我們發展得非常快。這樣說吧，我們現在在這方面的業務以前只是我們，9/11之前，或者剛好我們開始的時候，只是10％、15%。那麽現在這方面移民filing的業務已經變成我們80％的業務了。這樣，它很大程度可以彌補掉政治庇護沒有成功的這方面的情況。第二方面的原因，我們覺得新的移民法可能還會出來，可能是程度不同，範圍不同。比如說，布希總統說的，臨時計劃，或者國會參衆兩議院提的各種各樣的方案，民主黨，共和黨的。完全是因爲現在政治的關係，最近還沒有---。去年就開始講了，因爲選舉的關係，可能他們在選時機，看哪一段時間會出來，這個計劃是其中之一。Dream Act是另外一個，就是說，你小孩子進來讀高中讀了五年，一直在學校裏讀書；你能證明，他們就會給你綠卡，這些最後都沒定。但是，我估計今年或明年差不多應該是時間要出來了。一旦這一類新的法律出來，我們的律師事務所一定會走在前面，因爲我們對前面一輪的245(i)一下全部投入進去，後面的消化做得很好。特別是我們後面做移民的filing做得非常好。這樣的話，把移民服務的範圍，兩個方面一下都加入進去了。假如新的法律出來，我們發展的餘地要比前一次更大，我們都已經準備好了。我們事務所是---，因爲我是學者的關係，我不知道其他律師事務所是怎麽做的，我們有一個內部的培訓的一個機制。我們是on the weekly basis，我們開會討論新的案例，我們碰到的比較難的案例，或者是新的移民法。我們在去年的六月份又新開設了第二家律師事務所， 在Flushing，除了這家以外在Flushing，完全是我們內部機制運作的另外一個結果。所以，我們兩個事務所對中國人的兩個最大的社區提供服務。在那邊，根據我們積累的經驗發展得也不錯。所以，我們有一個內部的機制，一直在討論，一直在學習，在報紙上我們也有發表文章，是經常性的。這樣對我們對新的移民法的理解，對客戶的服務和準備上，有一個非常好的基礎。 問：你可不可以講一下9/11以後，就是收緊的這個移民政策，那好像現在如果申請綠卡，或者是移民的申請，大概現在時間會拖長多少？ 張：申請綠卡有各種各樣不同的原因，政治庇護成功的話，你可以申請綠卡，有不同的規定的。比如說，法官批給你是因爲你在中國受到一胎化政策的影響，批你的綠卡，這個綠卡要等很久的時間。它首先要等每年一千個的名額，每年只能批一千個，因爲政治庇護一胎化原因批准的政治庇護。所以，現在已經是有差不多一、兩萬人排隊在那邊，等到他說你排到了就要好幾年。等你排到以後你要申請綠卡，又是一個排期，又要受另外一個名額的限制。這樣的話，政治庇護的綠卡申請，以前---，最早五、六、七、八年之前可能三年、四年都可以了，現在要拖到九年到十年。平時的綠卡申請也拖久了。爲什麽拖久了？因爲加上了9/11以後的一個背景調查。把本來比如說，舉個例子吧，夫妻之間，或者是太太、或者是先生是美國公民，申請另外一方。以前在紐約差不多一年左右就可以完成這個程式，因爲現在加進了你的背景調查，至少在兩年以上，有的可能拖到三、四年，因爲背景調查沒有一個時間規定。所有其他的綠卡的移民至少延後了一至兩年。 問：那這樣的話對你的工作或者是生意會有影響嗎？ 張：這個對案件有好的影響，也有壞的影響。好的影響是，你可以幫客人提供更多的服務。一個服務就是到移民局去催。有很多案件申請了以後，它拖是沒有原因的。所以我們之所以很多地方很成功就是因爲我們一直幫他們催，一直提醒移民局，你的案子審得怎麽樣。他們不會馬上給你回音，但催幾次以後，他們會給你回音。壞的方面是對客戶不好，因爲客人申請一般都是很著急，因爲移民綠卡的申請是一個綜合性的工程。綠卡的批和不批對申請人的其他的社會關係産生很大的影響。對他、申請人的父母，對他今後工作的安排，對申請人的每天的生活都有很大的影響。所以，等於把不落實放在他們的肩膀上，會帶來很大的困難。因爲我是新移民過來的，我知道，因爲你身份申請的不落實，對你今後的很多安排會有很多confusion在裏面，很多的壓力的。你長遠的安排也不能做，所以這樣的話對他們是非常不好的。現在政府一直在說，加錢給移民局，讓他們加快這個進程。我是聽說最近新的申請反而會比一、兩年之前的申請會快。原因是政府給了很多的預算給移民局，讓他們加快。我沒有確定的消息。但聽他們說，你現在新的申請可能反而比舊的會快。 問：你可以講一下，你處理過那麽多案子，有什麽比較難忘的經驗？ 張：難忘的經驗非常多，因爲我是一個性情中人。政治庇護的案件，一個是你提供專業的法律服務，這是一個方面。但是，律師是唯一的一個，除了法官、檢察官、翻譯官和家庭所有人之外的，一個全程可以看清這個申請人的內心和他外在的所有東西。你會看到他的感情的變化，你會看到他的困擾在什麽地方， 你會看到他的擔心在什麽地方，你會看到他的喜怒哀樂在什麽地方。所以，有幾個政治庇護的案子---，每一個案子對我的牽動都是很大。通常客人都是希望自己能通過政治庇護得到身份，我也一樣。除了因爲我是律師之外，作爲我從中國來的中國人的背景，從內心來講，在符合美國的法律情況下，我有一種情感是傾向他們的。第一是法律，就是你一定要遵照美國的法律做。我是個律師，我有職業道德，肯定沒有問題，這是第一、最高的原則。第二的話，我是一個性情中人，加上我的背景，我對中國來的客人，不管是中國來的，臺灣來的，香港來的，其他各個地方來的，我覺得我有一種義務，我有一種責任要幫到他們。原因是我懂他們的文化，因爲我是這個文化的一部分。第二的話，我知道他們的各種各樣的confusion，他們的困難，他們的喜怒哀樂，我是知道的，他們的親屬不會知道。因爲你上法庭的時候我在旁邊，我幫他一起在準備，他所有的東西都會跟你說。很多人自己不一定意識到他的感情有多麽的豐富，我是跟著一起走的。所以每個案子批的話我是從內心覺得非常開心的。律師提供服務要收費用，在那一點上費用對我來說不是很重要的，我會跟著走。假如案件輸掉的話，我也是爲他很擔心，原因是我知道贏和輸對客人的影響有多大，對他的家人影響多大。比如說，有一個案子，我幫一個中國廣東汕頭籍的一個女子，當時是五十來歲，她偷渡入美國，在Newark Airport抓住以後，關在新澤西的Elizabeth Detention Center。我初出去幫她做擔保，通常居留所是不放的。這個女士的經歷很悲慘。她受到一胎化的迫害，原因是她有個男朋友，男朋友的太太是村裏面計劃生育委員會的一個主任，她跟她的先生有感情了，懷孕了。那麽，他們就通過很多的壓力，說一定要她去流産，不流産的話對她會有很嚴重的事情發生，因爲她沒有結婚嘛。這樣的話，她就跑掉了。一跑跑了八、九年，到了中國廣東省另外一個地方， 生了孩子以後一個人把他養大，經歷了非常多的辛苦。但是她沒有文件來證明。沒有文件證明的話理論上講，你只要口頭上提供的證詞是一致的，是可行的；法官採納你了，也是可以給你機會的。但是通常這樣是比較困難的。那個案子我打了十個月就把它打好了。後來我是有一點很感動，法官一開始的時候對這個案子不是很相信，不是覺得會批你的。最後批了，他說是這樣的，移民局你要上訴的話，我就讓你上訴不會成功，因爲這會變成一個新的案例。以前這樣的案子，沒有任何的文件，然後因爲這樣的女朋友，因爲懷孕，沒有這樣判例的，我要他們立一個新的判例出來。最後他答應了，我就是很感動。我給她說，這個我都沒想到會到這個地步。儘管我是努力了，我也不一定想到會到這個地步。最後政府上訴了，上訴還是輸了。所以，這個案例就在那兒定下來了，就變成一個新的案例。法官說是變成一個新的案例。所以，這個女士現在在美國。類似這樣的案子把我的精力，把我的感情、很多東西都是全部投進去了。對我本身的波動也是很大，從這個角度講，我看到了很多合法非法的移民的內心世界的很多東西。這是一個非常---，作爲我律師來講，我做這個領域是很多其他不做這方面的律師可能經歷不到的。 問：你怎麽看這個非法移民呢？好像很多美國人覺得這是一個問題，一個壞處。那作爲一個中國人，而且你處理過那麽多的案件，你怎麽看這個問題呢？ 張：我覺得，作爲一個律師來講，作爲一個美國公民來講，美國的法律都要尊重的，我要尊重，來的人都要尊重，不應該偷渡來，應該循合法的途徑過來。但反過來，因爲我是律師，我又要非常專業地幫我的客人爭取他們的權益。 儘管你非法來了，你違反法律來了，你還是有很多的權益，這就是美國這個國家好的地方。所以，我就是根據這個方面，我要提供我最好的幫助。那麽從這個角度，兩點的基礎上來講，我覺得其他國家的非法移民到這裏來，我對他們瞭解不多，因爲我的客戶主要是中國人。我覺得第一，美國是一個移民的國家。新的移民過來對美國國家是好的，是促進的。沒有移民的話就沒有美國國家這個歷史。美國至今能這麽發達就是各個國家的移民，不管你是非法的還是偷渡過來的，來了以後的風險所造成的。那麽中國的非法移民，我覺得，對美國這個國家是有促進的。我不主張他們違反法律，我不喜歡他們偷渡進來，避開這樣很多的---，非法地操作到了美國。我談的是他們進來以後，這個之前不是我們能夠評論的領域，我應該照法律去做。但這之後的話，我覺得，他們來了以後，作爲我們中國人，不管是臺灣來的，中國大陸來的，香港來的，包括中國人從其他地方來的，都是很勤奮，中國人一個是很勤奮做工。第二的話，給社會帶來的問題相對比較少。你可以從對子女的教育，對大家工作的情況可以看得出來，都是很重視子女的教育，做工都是很勤力。也有很多人做了不少壞的事情，但畢竟是很少數的。舉一個例子吧，福州人在這邊也就十幾年的歷史。你看福州人提供這麽多的外賣餐館和Buffet的餐館，不光在紐約，全美各地的，你很少能找到哪個地方沒有中國外賣餐館和Buffet餐館的。對美國的幫助有多大。不光把文化帶過來，也帶給他們方便，帶給他們服務。這個service不是其他所有人能做到的。我只是舉這個例子而已。 它generate很多經濟利益出來後，他會給他的子女去讀書，他會要人去就業。那麽做工的人又可以幫到自己的家人，然後又可以幫到政府的稅收。多麽好的一個事情。我覺得非法移民，特別是中國的非法移民，對美國這個國家絕對是有促進的，沒有任何對美國不好的地方。 問：你可以回想一下9/11發生那一天你在做什麽？ 張：9/11發生的時候對每個人來說都是一個很不同的一個時刻。那天我不在美國，我在中國，我在上海，我在我媽媽家裏面。我回程飛機票訂的是9月12日回美國。當時我在我媽媽家和我同學一起吃飯，吃飯的時候在看電視，電視裏面突然---，我弟弟他們說，怎麽有兩架飛機好像撞世界貿易大廈，兩個姐妹大廈。我們都沒注意，我也沒注意，覺得這可能在放電影。突然一看，不對，我說這個電影怎麽是鳳凰電視臺。鳳凰台是香港過去的，跟中國大陸的中央電視臺和上海電視臺不一樣。我覺得鳳凰電視臺的新聞台不會放電影吧。所以就過去看，一看的話一下就緊張起來了，又看到第二架飛機撞了。那個時候我第一件事情就是拿起電話，打電話找我太太。因爲她辦公的地方是在Broadway和Vesey Street，和姊妹大廈差一個block。因爲姊妹大廈在Church Street，過了就是Broadway。Vesey正好是姊妹大廈開始的地方。我太太在那個大樓裏面，她是當時在幫一家銀行做工作。我打電話找她，我說，怎麽回事？她說，很緊張。我聽到他們背景裏都在叫。我說我打電話到我的辦公室，我已經打不通，能不能你趕緊打個電話，叫他們趕快回去。辦公室裏有人的話叫他們趕緊走。第一，先回去。第二的話，我打電話就是make sure。我問她說，你打到沒有？她說，打到了，已經趕緊回去了。 等人走了我就放心了，不要有人在這個地方，因爲離那個地方很近。第二我說，你趕緊走啊。她說，現在不能走，很亂。我在電話上hold了四十分鐘。那個時候的心情，可能我跟他們回來以後說，要比在紐約辦公室或者在這兒的人更緊張，因爲人不在美國又很著急，那樣的心情是非常非常之著急。然後我又打電話找我的女兒，找不到，因爲她在Bronx Science High School讀書。那麽後來一直一天找不到。我太太最後說找到她，到同學家裏去住了。因爲辦公室裏的人都走了。我就放心了。然後我太太在裏面跟我叫了一句，她說，Oh，My God！It’s gone. It’s gone. 我說，什麽is gone？她說，兩幢大樓沒有了。我說，我在電視裏面還看到啊，在冒煙。她說，It’s gone. It’s collapsed. 所以，那時候的心情是緊張得不得了。從那開始，我一直電話不斷地在追。我覺得當時那個心情，因爲跟親身在這個9/11姊妹大廈周圍，包括我這個辦公室附近的不一樣。但是也是另外一種非常焦急的心情，因爲我人在上海，我的心完全more than 100%在這個地方，在擔心我的辦公室的員工的安全，擔心我太太，擔心我女兒的情況。所以一直在聯繫，跟航空公司說什麽時候能回去。那麽一直不能回來，一直到了17號，第一班飛機可以從中國飛過來了，就飛到了舊金山。舊金山出來的時候，我看到national guard就是全副武裝的，要比我們乘客還要多。所以一下回到辦公室，回到辦公室整個社區都變了。從Broadway，Canal Street開始，都是有national guard。全部封起來了，不能進入。除了工作人員可以進來，其他人都不能進來。好像一個打仗的戰區一樣，好像是在看電影一樣。整個環境都變了，完全一個---，好像是第二次世界大戰電影裏看到的那種景象。回到辦公室的話，一股硝煙彌漫的怪味道。馬路上沒有人了， 整個Broadway我從來沒有看到好像是一個空的廣場，沒有汽車能進來，全部是national guard國民兵在那兒駐防。你進來要看你的ID，不然的話不可以回到辦公室。所以回來以後開始大概是一個星期還是兩個星期不能上班。這個地方沒有開門，整個資料檔案全部斷掉了。回來之後的半年一直經歷了很大很大的變化。整個Chinatown不同了，整個Broadway不同了，整個New York City不同了。 [第二盤磁帶] 問：張律師，請你繼續講9/11發生的事情。 張：9/11發生了以後，我從上海回來了以後，第一的事情就是到辦公室。但是不能給我進來，因爲整個國民兵把Canal街開始全部都封起來了。這樣一封的話，你進來要查你的identification。開始的一兩個星期都不能給你進來。等他們開放以後我就進來，進來我看到整個形象都不同了。當時不知怎麽說，也不知道前景會是怎麽樣。因爲整個Chinatown走路很舒服，因爲你走路的話沒有交通。很多的飯店都關門，很多的生意都關門。覺得就是整個我們的客人不能來了，生意也沒有了。不光我們沒有生意，整個唐人街等於是一個ghost town，很多飯店也關門。你去吃午飯的話，可能有的飯店就是一桌、兩桌。很久的時間整個商業的環境都變了。我們的律師事務所的環境也變了。從那個時候開始，移民的生意一落千丈，整個都變化了。慢慢慢慢以後可能會起來，所以我們經歷了很艱難的一個調整的時期。這就是爲什麽我們更注意把法律服務提供給這些客人。可以有一點filing，移民的跟進上面。儘量提供各種各樣---，他們所不清楚的方面我們給他們提供。 所以9/11的時候，那個moment大概這輩子不會忘記，我是作爲一個人不在美國，但是我的家人，我的辦公室離9/11兩幢大樓那麽近，我想那個經歷也是非常unique，一輩子不會忘記的。我的shock和我感受到的那種無能爲力的這種感覺，我想大概不下於在這個領域裏面親身看到這個大樓倒下來的那些人的經歷，只是從不同的角度而已。 問：你是從文革過來的，你在文革時候有受過一些磨難嗎？你覺得那些磨難跟9/11比，給你的impact有什麽不一樣嗎？ 張：文革的時候我非常小，所以我沒有太多的可以講。但是我們的家庭是受到了很大的衝擊。我的爸爸被抓過去很多次，他的身體因爲文化大革命給一下子搞壞，因爲他當時是一個稅務局的官員。文化大革命之前的十個月，他被派到一個新的區去整理那兒的稅務的情況，然後就是文化大革命了。上海市市長派過去了，所以把他鬥得差一點生命沒有了，差一點送到黑龍江。當時這一段的經歷我非常小，我只是十一、二歲。但是，我覺得從那個經歷我一下長大成人了。從家裏的衝擊，因爲你想，你不知道什麽時候，半夜裏突然有人來敲門，敲得那麽響。以前非常平靜的生活一下會覺得非常的不一樣。敲門以後你不知道他是來抓你的父親，還是來抄你的家，還是怎麽樣。那個擔心受怕的感覺，從另外一種程度來講，是在我這生當中，是一個比較難忘的一個經歷。我也可能從這個當中就成熟起來了。但是文化大革命對我本身沒有很大的傷害或者是怎麽樣。我是經歷這個當中，我覺得是經歷文化大革命是一種非常不同的經歷。這個經歷對我今後的成長，給了我很多的內在的東西。可以對什麽問題的考慮都是有一個不同的想法， 或者說人比較更sophisticated，比較複雜一點，或者比較成熟一點。 問：9/11發生以後，這個恐怖襲擊，您對美國這個國家的印象會不會有改變呢，因爲這個事情？ 張：我對美國國家的印象有改變，這個改變從兩個方面來看。第一，9/11事件發生了以後，我突然發現美國人的愛國程度要比以前我所發現的要深層得多，廣泛得多，而且是普遍得多。美國人的愛國，某種程度上來講，我的感覺，根據我以前在中國的經驗來講，要超過中國人在中國的愛國的情緒，這麽普遍。非常之愛國，非常之團結。不管你是什麽政黨的，不管你是什麽社會集團的，不管你是什麽community的，我覺得大家像一個人一樣。我也覺得我更成爲這個國家的一部分了。大家非常地愛國，非常地團結。這個國家的認同的概念突然要比以前多很多。假如沒有9/11的話，可能我要花一輩子的時間對美國人的認同都不會像現在認同的這麽好。第二個改變，我就覺得它的政策趨向於保守。趨向於保守的話，好的一部分就是貢獻給了愛國的這一點，就是大家的愛國情緒是趨向保守的一部分，或者是趨向保守是愛國情緒的一部分。但是我覺得某種程度上來講，它的政策的改變，是有一點關門是關得太多一點。跟美國立國的精神開始有一點差別。這個對於我來說也是另外一點很深刻的印象。因爲我對美國國家的瞭解和對美國的喜歡是基於我以前學習的很多的東西，和基於我經歷9/11之前的十幾年在美國的經歷所積累起來的。這個還是沒有改變。我覺得這個國家好，是一個移民的國家。這個國家好是非常地民主。這個國家好是因爲有一個完整的法律，是可以保護各種各樣的人，有自由發表言論，自由做任何事情的權利，只要你不違反法律。這樣一個制度在世界其他地方，至少我待過的地方，在中國中國的法律沒有美國這麽健全，自由化的程度沒有美國這麽廣泛。 香港我待過的時候，當時英國還沒有把香港回歸給中國，也是一個很不同的一個地方。是中國人管理中國人，非常好的一個地方。我的感覺就是，新加坡，香港都是管理非常好的地方；但它自由的程度自然不能和美國比。所以，這是我對美國非常喜歡的一點。但是因爲9/11變化以後，除了我對美國這個國家認同更增加了以後，同時我就感到有一點擔心。我以前認識的這個價值，裏面的一部分給拿走了。我覺得就是美國政治的改變的一部分讓我感覺我又回到了中國，回到了中國的文化大革命。儘管是沒有這麽廣泛，沒有這麽深入，但是很多時間會remind me我小時候的經歷，在中國的經歷，政府的干預，各方面的情況。實際上，某種程度上來講，要比中國政府對老百姓的干預更全面、更強大。這是我比較擔心的地方。 問：你在不同的地方住過，在大陸，跟香港，跟美國，那哪一個地方你覺得是你的家，而且你覺得你是那個國家的人？ 張：紐約。這是肯定的。這個感覺七、八年前還沒有這麽強烈。七、八年開始慢慢慢慢越來越強烈。什麽原因呢？因爲是我每次回家我都感覺我是作客，因爲我的社區沒有了。因爲中國發展很快，上海我長大的地方，我爸爸媽媽搬的地方，慢慢都是拆遷拆遷，環境非常好了。但他們的環境對我來說是完全陌生的。我的同學沒有了，我的朋友沒有了，我的community沒有了。那一段的發展我沒有跟上。那我回去的話我覺得我就是作客，沒有做其他事情，完全是作客的感覺。我每次去的時候很想去，去了以後就很想快點回來。回到紐約的話，我就覺得我的家在這裏。紐約是我的家，不是美國的其他地方。香港呢，我也是很喜歡，北京我也很喜歡， 這是另外兩個城市我待得比較久的，再包括緬因吧，緬因的Portland。但是這幾個地方都沒有給我一個家的感覺。家第一是紐約，第二是上海，上海已經是我的一個作客的地方。這是完完全全的感覺。 問：你可以講一下你的家庭嗎？你有幾個小孩？你對他們的未來有什麽期望嗎？ 張：我有一個小孩。她是1997年四月份到美國來的，她在這兒成長得非常不錯。這也是我對美國這個制度非常喜歡的一個部分。我覺得美國的制度好。她來的時候不講英文，我們給了她很多的時間。這也就是我爲什麽要開自己的律師事務所，我可以花時間在她身上。我覺得工作某種程度上不如教育小孩那麽重要。假如我是業務很成功了，小孩的教育很不好了，或者她出了什麽事情的話，我覺得我會很失敗的。所以，她非常成功，到目前爲止。97年四月份來的時候，英文一點也不講，直接進入美國的一個neighborhood初中。半年以後參加考試就考到Bronx Science High School。那麽再過半年畢業以後就去讀了。讀了以後她在那兒的成績非常好。我們鼓勵她參加她學校的辯論隊，她在辯論隊是A Team。大概她申請大學的時候有六個大學錄取她，Chicago University, Economics Department，然後有那個Brown University，Columbia University，Cornel University，Dartmouth College，然後MIT。最後她選擇了MIT。現在在那兒已經是兩年級的學生。她選擇了那兒的交換學生的計劃，所以今年十月份她要到Cambridge，去過一年交換學生的生活。過兩年她就要畢業了。她也是，她很喜歡美國。上海慢慢慢慢也變成她一個作客的地方了。前幾天我和她討論，我說，你今年夏天要到臺灣去，要到香港，因爲她想瞭解臺灣的社會，所以準備去三個月，在香港會停一下。我說， 你要不要到上海去看一下爺爺奶奶？年齡比較大了。她說，不想去。我說，你爲什麽不想去呢？她說，I have no freedom. 我在那兒沒有自由。他們把我當小孩，完全要跟著他們，都喜歡我。她去的感覺就是跟我以前的感覺一樣。慢慢慢慢紐約就是她的家了。她讀大學以後，和讀高中的時候，我本來要搬家搬到Queens，搬到其他地方。她不同意。她說，我來美國的時候就住在78街York Avenue這裏。這是我的community。你搬的話，我不和你一起住。所以到現在爲止我還沒搬就是這個原因。你可以看出，我覺得美國這個國家對新來的人非常好。我一直跟她講，我說，你對這個社會要感謝。不能光是拿取，就和我一樣，我能對社區做多少，我現在都會做的。包括對我的業務當中，我做很多pro bono的，客人我不是完全看錢的，我幫他們的。我說，你也是。你是一胎化，計劃生育的産物，小皇帝，比較自私。到美國的話，你不能說光從美國這兒拿，你不付出。這個是你一輩子的失敗。所以，她初中的時候，她就出去做那種no-for-profit。有一年夏天她到香港做Human Rights，全世界Human Rights society，她是幫他們落實的團體，然後到醫院裏面去做。我都鼓勵她去，她不去我都逼著她去。所以，你一定要反饋給社會。不是說，因爲光是你聰明你就可以這樣，這個社會給了你很多。你要看到它好的地方，不要吸收不好的地方，而且把你很多東西反回去。所以，so far我們覺得我們的家在這邊，但是又不能全部把我們在中國的聯繫，自然的聯繫給卡斷，那也卡不斷。 問：你希望她以後做什麽？ 張：我希望她以後她喜歡做什麽就做什麽，不要走到歪路上面去。美國這個國家的好處是你怎麽想的話，你的dream你可以去實現。我覺得她很小的時候她也有一個dream。 我們這個年齡跟她來講肯定是有區別的。我們怎麽再想的話，不能想得和她一樣，因爲我們年齡，是另外一個generation。所以希望不要對她干擾太多，但是也要給她適當的指導。她走什麽路，喜歡的話，我都沒有問題，我都會支援她。 問：你現在多少歲？ 張：我是1955年生的，1955年6月26日，我現在49歲。 問：很年輕。 張：我覺得是這樣，這個年齡是個very exciting age。我儘量在我退休之前能多做一點事情，爲社區，爲其他人，我都會做。 問：你來美國這麽久，你對紐約的華人社區有什麽感覺呢？你覺得有什麽需要改善的地方嗎？ 張：華人社區在我來美國以後發展非常之快。我非常開心地看到，今天的華人社區和我來美國時那個時候的華人社區不一樣。我當時來的話覺得廣東話的團體力量非常之大。但是現在你可以很簡單地看到，除了廣東話之外，國語已經是一個可能比廣東話更大的團體，除了是福建人、福州人的移民之外，從中國大陸各地來的移民都是很多，上海的，北京的。我們法拉盛的辦公室接觸更多的是講國語的，除了臺灣講國語的以外，中國大陸各地來的講國語的人。現在整個華人的力量強了。人數絕對是增加得很厲害。但是有一點還是這樣，就是在大面積參政的同時不是很團結。假如我們華人能更團結一點，不管你是從中國來的，香港來的，臺灣來的，廣東來的，福建來的，上海來的，溫州來的，大家能團結起來，把我們社區裏面的人送到City Council， 送到紐約州的參議院、衆議院的競選，送到學區委員的競選，送到各個地方去，把聲音講出來的話。一個，對我們華人社會的發展會非常好。唐人街是一個比較獨特的團體。我覺得應該，唐人街這個團體應該和不同背景的中國人的團體，把它結合起來，因爲你從臺灣、中國大陸、香港、其他地方來的很多人，像我們的背景，出來之前的背景都已經很不錯了。應該把這部分人完全地融入到唐人街去，把唐人街的傳統的，靠傳統移民來推動，打破局面，會有一個非常好的發展。我現在已經看到，中華公所、華人聯合會，各種各樣的已經在慢慢慢慢在合作了，已經在朝好的方向發展，但是還不夠快。我覺得應該更快地把這個團體給推上去，因爲在紐約的唐人街是美國文化的一部分。它不是中國文化的一部分。紐約的唐人街是紐約市的非常重要的一部分。假如沒有紐約的唐人街，整個紐約的變化可能要比姊妹大廈沒有的變化會更大，整個紐約會不一樣。所以，這是我們華人在紐約的一個非常驕傲的地方，但是發展還是不夠。應該更團結，把各種背景的人都團結起來，放到一個團體裏面，互相不要吵，能做多少，大家就做多少，這樣的話會力量很大。在美國這樣的國家，有好的地方它會注意你的。你只要聲音發出來它會注意你的，但是現在我們的聲音太分散，但進步已經很大。 問：你對你以後的人生有什麽規劃呢？ 張：以後人生的規劃是這樣，我剛來美國的時候，我的原則是，我儘量避開唐人街，儘量避開Chinatown。所以，我住在77街，我不住在中國人的社區。 我以後的人生變化是，兩點肯定是越來越明顯。第一，我會盡我的能力，在發展我的律師事務的本身，爲社區做更多的服務。我能做的我都會做。第二，我會盡我的能力，把我以前在中國學到的背景和知識，和把我在美國學到的背景和知識一起會用出來，爲中國和美國的更多的交流做出貢獻。這個方面我能做更多。這兩個方面我都能做更多。這兩個方面我已經都開始做了。我想這兩個方面是我能在退休之前，或者退休之後，能做出的很多事情。爲社區做事，爲中國和美國之間的交流做事，憑我對雙方的瞭解。這是我要做的。 問：你預見的中國的未來是怎麽樣的？跟美國的這個互動？ 張：中國的未來，中美關係的互動，我是這樣感覺的，總的會好的。但當中會有很大的問題不斷，原因是臺灣問題。這個不是我們關心的。我們作爲中國人來講，不管從臺灣來的，中國的什麽地方來的，我都沒有任何的這個上面的想法。我女兒要到臺灣去，我很鼓勵她的。我都想到臺灣去，但是我沒有時間。我覺得中國和美國的關係會好的理由是，除了臺灣問題，已經不是主要問題了。中國和美國沒有衝突的。除了我當時到美國來之前的一個中國人的話，我從我的周圍圈子裏面，我的朋友裏面，沒有人不喜歡美國的。當時我們都覺得，我是搞學術的。假如要是不喜歡的話，可能我們更不喜歡日本和蘇聯，或者現在的俄國。對美國沒有什麽問題的，所以我覺得這雙方面的交流會越來越多，越來越好。問題會不斷，但是經濟交流和其他的話，中國和美國會變成世界上最好的夥伴，甚至會代替美國和日本這樣的友好夥伴的關係。我覺得臺灣問題解決以後，應該是往這個方向走的。 問：你有什麽建議要給政府當局或者是華人社區，覺得它可以把這個社區，一些9/11以後的問題可以處理得更好？ 張：社區來講，9/11以後的問題可以處理得更好。不管什麽團體，現在要抛棄偏見，大家儘量要溝通。現在不管是哪個團體，你以前的歷史怎麽樣。中國的團體有個習慣，就是大家小圈子比較多。我覺得應該把那個圈子，不管是廣東人的，不管你中國大陸來的，臺灣來的，不管你什麽地方來的，儘量打破這個圈子，把聲音發出去。不要一個團體聲音發出來了，另外一個團體發另外的聲音。在兩個團體有不同聲音的時候，應該溝通，溝通以後雙方都應該謙讓。一個聲音發出去，這樣會對我們比較好。我在退休之前之後我都會儘量做這方面的事的。我給星島日報寫了很多文章，我並沒有廣東的背景。對於香港，我只是有在那裏工作幾年的背景，也並不是因爲我是老華僑，我是臺山人，完全是撇開那一點來講的。我希望各種各樣的人都往這個方向走，能做貢獻，多做貢獻。抛開很多的偏見，還是很有希望的。假如像我們這樣背景的人能鼓勵其他人，包括我們自己，參與到社區裏面去的話，我想一定會有很多比較積極的聲音發出來。重要的是，具體的事情要做出來。中美關係也是這樣，我也會把我的知識各方面貢獻出來，兩方面都會的。 問：謝謝你今天的時間。 張：謝謝。 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Zhong Yue Zhang 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. unknown Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. transcription Media Type The media type of this item. interview Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ground One: Voices from Post-911 Chinatown Description An account of the resource New York City and the nation were deeply affected by the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. But the attacks also had significant consequences on a more local scale: neighborhoods throughout New York City experienced profound changes that will shape their future for some time. Located just ten blocks from Ground Zero, Chinatown is the largest residential area affected by 9/11. Much of the impact was strikingly visible. For eight days following the attack, for example, Chinatown south of Canal Street was a “frozen zone” in which all vehicular and non-residential pedestrian traffic was prohibited; and, for nearly two months, Chinatown residents and businesses were effectively isolated by the loss of telephone service. But much of 9/11’s impact on Chinatown was less evident. To better understand the consequences of 9/11 on Chinatown and Chinese New Yorkers, the Museum of Chinese in the Americas partnered with the Columbia University Oral History Research Office (OHRO), the September 11 Digital Archive (911 DA) at The Graduate Center of the City University of New York, and New York University's Asian/Pacific/American Studies Program and Institute (A/P/A). “Ground One” aims to provide an in-depth portrait of the ways in which the identity of a community, largely neglected by national media following 9/11, has been indelibly shaped by that day. Beginning in Fall 2003, “Ground One” interviewed 30 individuals who lived and worked in Manhattan’s Chinatown. The interviewees represented a diverse cross-section of Chinese Americans, including garment and restaurant workers, community activists, non-profit administrators, union organizers, healthcare and law professionals, senior citizens, and youth. Oral history was employed to understand how people perceived and responded to the tragic events of 9/11 in the context of their life histories. Several overarching themes were selected for this website: Personal Accounts of September 11th; Air Quality/ Health; Jobs, Language & Access; Garment Industry; 9/11 Relief; and Political and Civic Engagement. Presented here is an assemblage of voices from the perspective of a neighborhood just ten blocks away from Ground Zero. Chinatown Interview Chinatown Interview: Interviewee Agnes Wong Chinatown Interview: Interviewer Lan Trinh Chinatown Interview: Date 2004-05-21 Chinatown Interview: Language Cantonese Chinatown Interview: Occupation garment worker Chinatown Interview: Interview (en) Q: Today is May 21st, and I am sitting with Agnes Wong at #193 Centre Street. Ms. Wong has 30 years of experience working in the garment industry in Chinatown. Let’s start our conversation with Ms. Wong’s background. Where are you from, Ms. Wong? WONG: I immigrated to America from Hong Kong. Q: Were you born in Hong Kong? WONG: I was born in mainland China. When I was about 3 or 4 years old, we came to Hong Kong because my parents were fleeing the Communist Party. Q: Where in mainland China was that? WONG: I was born in Guangdong’s Boluo, in mainland China. Q: So you moved to Hong Kong when you were very young. WONG: We came to Hong Kong when I was about 3 or 4 because mainland China was going through chaotic political changes, and it was being ruled by the Communist Party. So we came to Hong Kong. I grew up in Hong Kong, studied in Hong Kong, and lots of my relatives had already moved to Hong Kong to live. Q: What did your parents do in Hong Kong? WONG: My father helped manage a church. He worked at the church, and my mother was a housewife. Q: So why did they decide to immigrate to America? WONG: My parents didn’t immigrate to America. After I finished my education in Hong Kong, I worked for a few years, and by luck I met my husband. Originally, he had known my uncle, and had come to Hong Kong to seek him out. We were lucky in that everyone met each other. I became friends with him. Later, my aunt strongly encouraged us to start dating, and we finally fell in love and got married. Because he came from New York, in America, and had a job, after we got married and had some children, we immigrated to New York. Q: So your husband had been in New York for a long time? WONG: He worked in New York with my uncle. Q: Around what time did they arrive [in New York]? WONG: They came in the 60s, very early. On the other hand, my children and I came over in 1973, no, it was Easter of 1974 that we came. Q: Did you work in Hong Kong? WONG: Yes, I did. I did some different jobs. In the beginning, I was a secretary for a weaving factory, as a counter. Those yarn factories produced lots of yarn every day, and I calculated the workers’ wages, and kept track of how much product they produced each day. Later, the number of factories in Hong Kong increased a bit. The Japanese started establishing factories in Hong Kong, and some electronics factories were created. At that time, one of my classmate’s brothers acted as a trainee in a Japanese electronics factory because he was a good student, and later he advanced up to the position of engineer. I worked for several years at his factory. This brother of my classmate was extremely advanced in electronics, and later on he did a joint venture with the Japanese, opening a factory in China. He did a great business there, and was able to financially establish that business. Q: So you came to New York on Easter of 1974. At that time, how old were you? WONG: 27 or 28 years old. Q: Did you understand English? WONG: You could say I understood English. I had finished high school and had studied at an English-language academy, a women’s academy. Q: So as soon as you came to America, you went straight to New York? WONG: That’s right. Q: What were your thoughts of New York before coming to America? WONG: I originally didn’t have any opinions about America, just that I would be changing my surroundings. As soon as I came to New York, I saw that it was a huge city, and that it was prosperous, just like Hong Kong, and that I could study things here, start a new life, a new environment, learn new things, like that. Q: So your husband was always in New York. Did you ever think of moving to another city, like in California or some other state? WONG: I never thought about that. Q: When you first arrived, where did you live? WONG: When I first arrived, I lived for about a year at #125 Henry Street in Chinatown. I thought the place was pretty small. Later we bought a place to live in Brooklyn. Q: What were your impressions of Chinatown when you first arrived? WONG: At that time, I thought that Chinatown was far behind, it wasn’t as advanced as I had imagined, there weren’t as many people and it wasn’t as flourishing. There was work, but it still wasn’t my ideal location. Hee hee! Q: So it wasn’t what you had imagined. WONG: It wasn’t the kind of place I had been hoping to find. Q: What had you imagined America to be like before you came? WONG: When I was in junior high school, we had an English teacher from Britain. He was also an assemblyman in Hong Kong, and he said: “When you grow up, if you have a chance to go to any cities in America, then go see the Hudson River while you are in New York, and the skyscrapers. You are young enough that, if you have that kind of chance, it would be great to develop in that environment.” Maybe it was what he said, because I thought that if I had the chance, it would be great to develop myself over there. So I had envisioned America as being very advanced, very prosperous, with lots of job opportunities, and that it was a pretty good place. But after I came, I only saw Chinatown, and I realized that it wasn’t the New York I had imagined. Q: So you didn’t have any chance to see other cities? WONG: No. Of course, later on I changed my views, and I saw that New York was a very prosperous and advanced place, that it was an economic and fashion capital, that the population and opportunities to travel were all very good, and at that time prices were very cheap and the work opportunities were good, the hours were really good, everything was great. It was just a little bit foreign to me. At that time I had thought about doing some job for [non-Chinese] Americans, but they didn’t want to accept my diploma. They insisted on a college diploma. Or else they asked if I was a citizen, and how long I had been in America. I went to a number of American jobs and didn’t succeed. But it wasn’t an option to sit around and not work. I thought about going to study, to increase my knowledge. At that time, Chinatown only had two organizations where you could study. I asked around at both places, but neither seemed to match my level. It was all very basic English, and it didn’t match my level, considering that I had completed Form 4 in Hong Kong. So I didn’t pursue studying at any other school. Q: How did you start work in the factory? WONG: A relative of mine on East Broadway opened a garment factory. It’s a little past today’s 888 Restaurant, and he had started the garment factory on the second floor. He said: “If you have free time, how about coming to work at my garment factory?” I said, “But I don’t know sewing, and I have never sewed before in my life!” He said, “You’re this smart, you’ll learn quickly.” I said, “How can I count on sewing to make a living when I don’t even know how to hold a needle! How can I sew?” He said, “You’re fine, you’re fine, you’ll learn quickly.” Later on, I tried it. At that time the working hours were very good. We started at nine and left at six, and if we worked on Saturdays, we earned overtime pay, there were long vacation times, and there was special holiday money on top of it. At the time the standard of living was very low. Q: But your husband also worked? WONG: Yes, he was a cook in a restaurant. He was the head chef, and his income was really good. So we were only in Chinatown one year, and then we bought a place in Brooklyn. And at the garment factory, I learned very quickly to make pants, and immediately joined a union. While I was working at the factory, an agent came to the factory and said, “If you work in this profession, you have to join the union.” I said, “OK.” Q: Why did you want to join the union? WONG: Because the agent told me, if you’re living in America doing this kind of work, you have to join the union. Once you join the union, the union will protect the workers’ benefits. So all my fellow workers joined, and there was nobody who didn’t join. Just as long as you were a worker or colleague, then you could join, and if you manufactured clothes you joined the union for clothing manufacturers. So I joined the 105 union for clothing workers. Q: Did you always do sewing? WONG: I never understood how to cut it, because when the clothing material came, it was already cut into pieces, and Westerners [i.e. non-Chinese] sent it over, and we just did work on that. Q: Was your boss a Chinese person? WONG: All of my bosses were Chinese. Q: So how did you feel about the environment, working in a garment factory? WONG: Back then, the conditions in the garment factories were passable, but they didn’t provide air conditioning, they had fans. The boss treated the workers well, very friendly. The boss appreciated your feelings. Of course they were good to me, and they were also very good to the average worker. Even outside of the relationship between the employer and the employees, there was a special kind of good feeling. It was great. Q: So did pretty much all the people working with you join the union? WONG: 100% joined the union. There was nobody who didn’t join the union. Everyone joined it. Q: Did the boss like you joining the union? WONG: He supported it. It was the boss who told the workers to join the union, not the workers who said they wanted to join the union. The boss called for the workers to join the union, saying, “You should join the union. Having a union is good. The union will give you Blue Cross, you’ll get pay if you take days off, and there’s lots of things that are good for you.” Q: So the boss encouraged you to join? WONG: Yes, the boss encouraged us to join. Q: Speaking from the boss’ perspective, did he have to pay you more money after you joined the union? WONG: Oh, at that time the money for worker’s benefits and protection was partially paid by the employee and partly paid by our boss. But at that time the boss was doing very well, and so the boss was willing to share some of the money with us. He wasn’t stingy, he was happy about it. We produced lots of clothing every day, so he felt he ought to give the workers a share. Q: How much did you make every week? WONG: At that time, we worked 36 hours a week, five days a week. We usually didn’t work on Saturdays. At most we’d work 40 hours, because we did piece work, rather than being paid by the hour. If you work by the hour, then in one week you could make 300 to 350 dollars, depending on how much work the boss gives you, all according to the hours worked. But we didn’t have a minimum salary, we didn’t have minimum pay, we got paid according to how much we did. Q: In your case, were you a fast or slow worker? WONG: I did piece work, and at that time I was still young, and my hands and feet were fast, so every week I made between 200 and 250 dollars. I was asked by Mr. Wang, a friend of mine who worked in a bank, “Would you like to get a job? You can come work at my bank.” I asked, “How much salary will the bank pay me each week?” He said, “When you first start out, you can make between 150 and 160 dollars a week. I thought, “That’s all? Working in the garment factory is better.” Q: Was it very difficult working as a seamstress? Your hands, your feet, and sitting while doing all those movements? WONG: At first I really wasn’t used to it, and so it felt very unpleasant, but because every Friday, after I got my pay, I could buy so much with just fifty dollars, that made me very happy and I didn’t even think it was hard. While I was working I could chat very pleasantly about personal things with my colleagues next to me, and it didn’t seem so difficult, not like at first, when I felt I didn’t understand anything, and wondered how I was going to make it. Q: But together with your husband, your income was quite good? WONG: We really had a wealthy lifestyle then. Every month I made over a thousand dollars, and together with my husband, we made about 1400 or 1500 a month. It was really good. Q: Did you keep doing it, or did you change careers? WONG: I kept at it. In 1979, I switched to work at the union in Lafayette. That union was different, because at that time a number of the seamstress unions were separate. The seamstress unions included the 23-25 branch, the 105 branch, and the 199 branch. My old branch was the 105, and after I changed work, my union switched from 105 to the 23-25 branch. Now it’s UNITE. Q: About how many members are in UNITE today? WONG: UNITE has about, well, nowadays they have only about 1,000 members in Chinatown to be accurate. Before, when they were at their peak, they had about 10,000 members. Q: Do most of the new immigrants join the union? WONG: New immigrants go half and half. When they start work at a garment factory, about half join, and about half decide to think about it first, think about whether or not they should join. Because the economic situation is very difficult at first, and they feel they want to save everything they can, they don’t want to pay the union dues. Or they might just want to think it over more clearly, understand whether it has a benefit for them, before making a decision about whether or not to join. Q: Can anybody join, or do you need to have legal status before you can join? WONG: Anybody can join, there are no restrictions, and you can join even if you don’t have legal status, because the union protects not just the rights of those with status, but also protects the rights of those without it. A lot of workers nowadays, especially those without legal status, they don’t understand that you can join even without status, and so they don’t dare join the union. They’re afraid of government connections, and they’re afraid of creating trouble. That’s a big mistake. Actually, they are also immigrants. To put it another way, just last week, the members of the union’s political committee met with senators and we presented five demands. The first was a New York Health Plan. The second was a minimum wage, that is, to increase the minimum wage. Q: [Are you referring to the English phrase] “minimum wage”? WONG: Yes, the minimum wage. We want it increased from a little over five dollars to seven dollars per hour. The third demand was the “Empire Zone.” If business move from wealthier areas to older communities, then they should gain tax breaks, and this would create a lot more employment opportunities. Q: How much is the monthly union membership fee? WONG: The monthly membership dues are $23.20, and the dues for a half year are $139.20. Each time people pay the union dues, I write down how much they paid. I pay half a year at a time, but some people prefer to pay every month. Q: You said that people without legal status in this country fear that if they join the union then the government will come and look for them? WONG: Actually, it’s not like that. Actually, if someone without status joins the union, then the union will demand on their behalf that the government pass laws, that they should change the laws, saying that new immigrants to America are also living and spending here, and that we wish the government will pass a law that allows them to gain legal status, to gain a green card or temporary residency which they can later change to a green card. We are also constantly meeting with congressmen to discuss these issues. You know how it is with making laws -- you need many years of demands and battles before you can “reap the rewards.” Like right now, the battle for children’s health insurance, it’s been a matter of going to representatives and senators many times, calling upon them and repeatedly making requests, before we finally got a result. Q: You said that one of your demands to Washington is an increase in the minimum wage. Do you fear that right now -- so many of the garment factories in Chinatown have already closed because they can’t compete with the labor in third world countries like China, because it’s so cheap there – do you think that if you raise the salary of the American worker, these factories might not be able to continue existing, and that the opportunities to work will decrease even further? WONG: This is also a problem, because frankly, the workers’ salaries in China are very low. Most businessmen look for cheap labor, in order to reduce their costs. In America, labor is expensive, and it’s impossible to deny that we lose some work opportunities. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t continue in this line of work, that they can’t operate any more. The ones that want to leave have already left. But New York still needs some garment factories producing here in New York. It seems that some seasonal clothing needs to be sent to market quickly, and sometimes things produced abroad aren’t up to standard and can’t be sent back to China to be fixed. Sending it back and forth costs a lot of time, so they have it done right away in New York. So the garment factories still have a future, they can still make it. If you say that the high wages in New York will impact the garment industry, well, lots of American cities have wages higher than those in New York. Why does New York have such a high cost of living, rent, food, phone, gas, everything all together, and I’ve also heard that after Labor Day, it’s going to get even more expensive. And the wages are always low, and don’t match the cost of living, and if it can’t match the cost of living, people will all move to other places; if people move to other places, there are no workers, and there’s no businesses, and without business, there’s no work, so where will the business opportunities come from? Where will the businessmen and their businesses come from? New York is a place where people are clustered together, so it’s easy to find workers. If people are looking for workers, it’s easy to find them in New York. And actually, it’s also easy to find work in New York, especially manual labor or low-level work. It’s much easier to find that. A lot of organizations and such don’t even ask you if you have legal status when they’re looking for workers, and they’re willing to hire you. This is a great benefit for those who have just arrived in this country. Q: When 9/11 took place, you were still working in Chinatown? WONG: Yes. Q: Then did 9/11 influence your factory? WONG: Yes, the impact was huge. The factory simply didn’t have any clothing materials coming in, because the vehicles weren’t allowed into New York. They weren’t allowed in. The workers had already cut the fabric but they couldn’t send in the clothing material. We stopped work, and only collected unemployment. Q: How long did you stop work? WONG: For 3 months. Q: So at that time, you didn’t have any income at all? WONG: We didn’t have any income at all. We just collected unemployment. Q: Did you collect any of the 9/11 economic assistance money? WONG: Personally, I didn’t go get any. A lot of my colleagues went to apply, because after 9/11 there were many months, about 3 or 4 months when there was no work, and later, when the factories opened, there was still very little work to do. They would typically be open only one or two days a week. A lot of time they were just sitting doing nothing, and whenever a small order arrived, they immediately began production. You couldn’t do anything about it. You just sat there not doing anything for so long, and so when I saw that there were things to study, I went and signed up for them, for the 9/11 courses. I studied computers and English. Q: Why didn’t you go apply for some of the economic assistance? WONG: I thought, since I immigrated to this place a lot earlier, I thought that I could get by. If I could support myself financially, then don’t worry about it, and just leave this opportunity to others. Maybe there are some people who have just arrived and don’t have any economic foundation and need to pay rent, and who have young children. They should try to get help, and if the factories aren’t open then they don’t have any income. As far as we go, we already have our own home, we worked for many years, and we could get by and survive, so we didn’t feel like going to too much trouble. So I didn’t seek anything of the economic nature [i.e. economic assistance]. Later on I saw that a lot of people were taking courses, and other coworkers said to me, “Why don’t you go study? You can go study, and it won’t affect anything else.” So I went and studied the final group of classes, it turned out to be the last one. Q: When was that? WONG: In July or August of 2003, I finally went to study, and altogether I studied about 6 weeks. Q: I heard people say that the classes were for 13 weeks. WONG: I studied for 6 weeks, then studied again for 6 weeks, and the entire length of time was 13 weeks. Q: What did you choose to study? WONG: I choose computers and English. Q: Why did you study English? I see that your English is already very fluent, isn’t it? WONG: No, my English is of no use. Lots of times I can’t express what I want to say. Lots of times I have to think about it first, and I often need to ask someone good at English to help me, ask them “Is this the right way to say something? Is that OK?” I finally force myself to express a little of my thoughts, but my English isn’t that good. Q: Then do you feel that 13 weeks of classes were useful? WONG: They were very useful. First I learned some simple computer functions, and learned a little English. They taught very simple superficial stuff, so we couldn’t learn a lot. Q: Where did you study? WONG: I studied at City Hall. Q: And which organization arranged it? WONG: I’m not really clear on which organization it was. I think they said it was the 9/11 Fund. Q: And did you see information about it in the newspaper? WONG: No. One of my coworkers was studying there, and introduced me. I think they said it was the 9/11… Q: What kind of people were most of the teachers? WONG: The majority was White, but there were also one or two Chinese. They were Taiwanese students, studying in the university here. Q: Do you think they understood your circumstances? WONG: They all understood really well. During classes they asked us some questions, and my colleagues all answered very honestly. Q: Do you think that those 13 weeks of studying were useful, outside of getting a little money? WONG: Of course it was useful. My fellow workers had spent their whole lives without ever studying, and they didn’t even know the alphabet. After studying for 13 weeks, at a minimum they could write their own names, their address, to say their own address and where they work, their phone number, and so on. Q: You learned very basic English, so it wasn’t useful to your work…? WONG: I think that it was useful to me personally. Q: So it wasn’t useful towards your work, but it was useful to you personally. Have you ever thought of changing careers? WONG: Up until now, I have never thought about changing careers. Q: Is that because you feel that you are too old and no longer have that chance, or is it because you like your work now? WONG: I still like the sewing work that I do now, and that’s one reason. The second reason is because I’m older. Going to look for work when you’ve already reached the age of retirement – people will want to use someone younger, they won’t consider using someone who’s about to retire. So I didn’t think about changing careers. Q: And your factory closed for four months, is that right? WONG: Yes. Q: And later, did it return to normal? WONG: Later the factory was continuously open. Recently it’s become a bit busier. Q: And have you always worked at the same company? WONG: No. During my time I’ve changed garment factories many times, and during these decades the change has been huge. I’ve worked in about four or five factories. I’ve had a good, friendly relationship with every boss. When some bosses stopped [running the factories] and took up some other business, they were succeeded in the management by their children. Q: And do you hope that your children will follow you in this career? WONG: Of course not. But I have two sons who are working in the restaurant business, but they’re not doing it in New York, they’re working in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Q: What do you think is the biggest change in Chinatown? WONG: The biggest change is the change in population. Back then, rent in Chinatown was really cheap. The rent in 1974 was 120 dollars, and that was for a place with two rooms, a kitchen and a bathroom, even though the rooms weren’t that big. Back then I rented a place for 135 dollars, and then after a year the price was raised to 150 dollars. The monthly rent for a place with two rooms or more reached 180 dollars, and nowadays of course, it is many times more than that. Back then, there weren’t so many people selling vegetables and groceries on the roadsides. Back then everything was sold inside stores. There weren’t so many teahouses and restaurants, not to mention the great extent to which it has expanded, Chinatown has expanded as far as Delancey. Few people went that far, even Bowery, some workers selling jewelry there, at night they didn’t want to go by, they were afraid to go past there, and some workers said, “Hey, don’t go there, those non-Chinese will grab you, there’s people who drive cars to come and grab you and take you away!” Back then the women really knew nothing. They told these stories and got so scared! Q: You’ve been here for such a long time. Are you satisfied with your life here? WONG: Oh…. I think that I didn’t make the wrong choice. I think that in America, especially life in New York -- New York is a place with very convenient transportation. I can have a car, but also I have the freedom to not have a car, because public transportation goes everywhere. As far as family life goes, personally, I have a home, I live very comfortably, because I entered a career in the sewing union, and at the union I’ve constantly been learning new things, met a lot of friends, and I’ve learned a lot from my friends, the school and from my union organization during the summer. I’ve participated in lots of different activities, I joined the Chinese Labor Union of Women, the Asian Pacific Association of Labor Alliance, the worker’s organization, and I’ve also joined some political activities. I really like listening to other people talk. I think when I was younger I wanted to study more but didn’t have the chance. After coming to New York and entering a career as a seamstress, joining the union allowed me to take lots of different classes. Even though I spent quite a bit of money and time, my knowledge of society has increased a lot. So I am very satisfied, and I feel very happy. Before I arrived, I had thought that once I got old I would go back to Hong Kong and live out my life there. However, my siblings now tell me, “Hong Kong housing prices are very low now, so go back! In America, housing prices have become very expensive, so if you sold your place and went back there to live, you could retire already.” No way, I answered, I want to return to New York to live. At that time, when I was on the airplane going on vacation, I heard the song, “New York, New York, I love New York.” I really liked it. When I came back here, I felt that this is really my home, and I’ve already got lots of friends here. Q: Thank you very much. You told us so many of your stories and experiences in Chinatown. WONG: Thank you very much, Ms. Lan, you’re too kind to me. Q: Thank you very much, Ms. Wong. WONG: Thank you. [end of session] Chinatown Interview: Interview (zh) 問：今日是5月21 日，我和王太坐在中央街193號，王太已經在唐人街車衣廠做了30多年的經驗。我們現在就從王太的背景開始說起。王太，你是從那裡來的？ 王：我從香港移民來美國。 問：你是在香港出生的？ 王：我是在中國大陸出生的，大約3﹑4歲時，我父母因逃避共產黨的關係，來到香港生活。 問：是在大陸的那裡？ 王：是在大陸的廣東博羅出生。 問：你很小時候就去了香港？ 王：大約是3﹑4歲時左右，來到香港，因為當時大陸變色，由共產黨統治，所以我就到了香港，所以我在香港長大，在香港讀書，很多親戚亦從大陸到香港生活。 問：在香港你父母做什麼？ 王：我爸爸在香港一個幫助打理一間教會，在教會做事，我媽媽是一個家庭主婦。 問：那他們為什麼要想到移民美國來？ 王：我爸爸媽媽沒有移民來美國。是我在香港讀完書，做了幾年工作，一個機緣認識到我先生，他本來認識我叔叔，到香港探我叔叔，我們有緣大家相見，我和先生做了朋友，後來我嬸嬸極之贊成我們開始結交，愛情道路最後成功了，結了婚。因為他來自美國紐約，有工作的，結婚後有幾個小孩子後，我們就移民到紐約。 問：你先生一早來了紐約？ 王：他和我叔叔在紐約一起做工的。 問：在那一個時代來到的？ 王：他們是在1960年代來到的，是很早期來的。我和小孩子則是1973年，不，是1974年復活節來到的。 問：你在香港有沒有做工？ 王：我有，做過幾份工，最初時在織造廠做書記，即是計數。那些紗廠每日出產很多紗，又計算工人的工資，又記錄它每日的產量。後來香港的工業廠多一些，日本人開始在香港設廠，有些電子廠。那時我同學一位哥哥在一間很大的日本電子廠當學徒，因為他肯學，後來升到相當於工程師的職位，我在他廠幫助工作了幾年。這位同學的哥哥在電子方面很發達，後來和日本合資在中國開電子廠， 做了很大的生意，將生意企業化。 問：你在1974年復活節來到紐約，當時你幾多歲？ 王：27﹑28歲。 問：那你懂英文嗎？ 王：我當時算是懂英文，讀完高中，我是唸英文書院的，是「書院女」。 問：一來到美國就到紐約？ 王：是的。 問：未來美國前，你對紐約的第一印象是怎樣的？ 王：我原來對美國沒有什麼印象，只不過叫做轉換一下環境，一到美國紐約，一見是大都會，和香港一樣都是很繁榮，或者我在這裡學到東西，開始新生活，新的環境，新的學習，這個意思。 問：那你先生一直在紐約城市，有沒有想過搬到其他城市如加州或其他州？ 王：一直沒有考慮過。 問：你初來時，在紐約的那裡住？ 王：我初來時，在唐人街亨利街125號住了一年左右，覺得地方是小了一點，後來在布碌崙買屋住。 問：你初來時，對唐人街有什麼印象？ 王：當時覺得唐人街很落後，不是我想像一般的發達，和人口較少，不是很興旺，是有工做，但亦不是我理想中的地方。嘻嘻！ 問：都不是你想像。 王：不是我想要尋求的目標的地方。 問：那你未來美國之前，想像的美國是怎麼樣的？ 王：我讀中學的時候，教英文的老師是英國人，是香港的議員，他說：「當你們長大的時候或者要到美國的城市，你在紐約的時候要見到Hudson River(赫德遜河)﹑摩天大樓，你們這麼年輕，會有這樣的機會，到那裡發展也不錯。」可能是那一句話，我覺得如有機會，在那裡的發展也會不錯。所以我心目中美國很發達﹑很繁榮﹑很多工作機會，都幾好。但是來到後，當時只見到唐人街，所以知道不是心目中的紐約。 問：沒有機會看到其他的城市？ 王：未，那當然後來改觀了，知道紐約是很繁榮發達的，是金融﹑時裝中心，人口﹑旅遊各方面都很好，當時物價亦很便宜， 工作很好，時間很好，樣樣都好，只是陌生了一點。 　　當時我曾想找一些老番(美國人)的工作，但他們不是叫我取出文憑，便要大學文憑，或是問我是否公民？來美國多久了？我見了幾份美國工都不成功，坐著不做工又不是辦法。 　我曾經想讀書，增廣一下知識，華埠當時只有兩間機構可以讀書，我問過，覺得都不適合我的水平，那些都是初級的英文，對於我完成香港的Form 4(中四)程度的人並不適合，所以我沒有尋求其他的學校去唸書。 問：你怎樣進入衣廠工作呢？ 王：我有位親戚在East Broadway(東百老匯)開衣廠的，在現在的怡東酒樓再過去一點，在二樓開衣廠，他說：「你有空，不如到我的衣廠做工。」我說：「我不懂車衣，從來未車過衣的！」他說：「你這麼聰明，一學就會。」我說：「我怎可靠車衣揾食，我甚至連拿針都不懂，怎麼會車衣呢？」他說：「行行行，你很快會學會。」後來即便試一試。當時工作時間都很好，返九時，放六時，星期六開工有overtime pay(超時工資)補薪，有大假期，有特別的假期錢加上去，當時生活水平很低。 問：但你先生也做工？ 王：有，他在餐館做廚師，他是頭廚，收入相當不錯呀。所以我們只在唐人街一年，很快就在布碌崙買屋。 那我在衣廠做，很快，才個多月學曉車褲，立即加入工會。我在工廠工作時有經紀上廠，說：「你在這行業要加入工會。」我說：「好。」 問：你為何要加入工會？ 王：因為我聽見經紀說，你在美國生活，做這個行業要加入工會，加入工會後工會會維護工人的利益。所以個個工友都參加，沒有人不參加的，只要你是工人工友，便可以參加，如你製衣工人便加入製衣工人工會，那我加入105工會，車衣工會工人的工會。 問：你一直做車衣的？ 王：我一直不懂裁剪，因為衣料來到的時候，已是一塊一塊cut(裁剪) 好，西人(美國人)送過來，我們只是加工。 問：你的老闆是唐人？ 王：我的老闆都是唐人。 問：那你覺得做車衣工廠的環境好不好？ 王：那時車衣工廠的環境過得去，但不會給你冷氣，有風扇，老闆待工人不錯，很友善，老闆有感激你的心情。他們對我當然很好，對一般工友都很好，除了僱主和僱員之間，還有一份特別好的感情，很好。 問：和你一起做工的人差不多大部份都加入工會？ 王：百分之一百參加了工會，沒有人不參加工會，個個都參加工會的。 問：那老闆喜不喜歡你們參加工會？ 王：喜歡，當時是老闆叫工友參加工會，不是工人叫參加工會。老闆呼籲工友參加工會，說：「你要參加工會，有工會好，工會給你藍十字，放假有假期錢，有很多對你有好處的東西。」 問：老闆都鼓勵你們參加？ 王：是，老闆鼓勵工友參加。 問：你們加入工會，對老闆而言，是會多花金錢的？ 王：哦，以前維護工人的福利金，是發衣商交一部份福利金，老闆給一部份，是這樣分出來錢來的，但那時候老闆環境好，老闆願意分一部份出來，不計較，很開心，既然每日出衣很多，覺得應該給工人一份。 問：你每星期賺到幾多錢？ 王：那時候(1974年)一星期做36小時，做5天工，很少星期六開工的，頂多做40小時，因為我們是按件計工人，不是和老闆計鐘的。 和老闆計鐘的，一星期有300至350元，看老闆給你多少工，就按鐘計。但我們車位沒有底薪，沒有minimum pay，做多少給多少。 問：你做工屬於快或慢？ 王：我是屬於piece work(按件計)，當時後生，手腳都快，當時每星期賺200元至250元，一位朋友在銀行做經理的，叫王先生，他問：「你想不想找工作做？可以來我的銀行做。」我問：「你的銀行一星期給我多少人工？」他說：「初來我們銀行時，一星期大約是150至160元。」我心想：「這麼少，都是做衣廠較好。」 問：你做衣車工是不是很辛苦，手呀﹑腳呀﹑坐得久等動作？ 王：我起初時真的不習慣，覺得辛苦，但是因為每個星期五，取得薪金後，只要50元就買得到很多東西，開心時，就連辛苦也不覺得，做事時又可和旁邊的工友有傾有講，很開心，不覺得太難，不似起初時覺得我什麼都不懂，以為如何做得來。 問：但你和先生收入加起來，生活都幾好？ 王：當時的生活相當富裕了，那時我覺得一個月有千多元收入，我倆夫婦加起來有1400至1500元，是相當好的了。 問：你一直做下去，沒有想過轉行？ 王：是的，一直做下去。1979年我轉到拉菲逸街這邊的工會做，這邊的工會不同，因為當時有幾個車衣分會，車衣工會有23-25分會﹑105分會﹑199分會。我以前的工會是105，轉工後，工會由105轉到23-25分會，即現在的成紡聯合車衣工會UNITE。 問：現在的UNITE大約有多少members (成員)？ 王：現在的UNITE大約嘛，準確的數字在唐人街只有數千，以前最高峰時期有一萬多member(會員)。 問：現在的新移民多數有沒有參加工會？ 王：現在的新移民一半一半，當他們入車衣廠做時，一半會參加，一半會先考慮，想一下是否應該參加，因為初來時經濟基礎不好，覺得可以慳一個仙就一個仙，不想交會費，或看清楚一點，看是否對自己有益處，才決定是否參加。 問：是否任何人都可以參加，或者有身份時才可以參加？ 王：任何人都可以參加，沒有限制，就算沒有身份也可以參加的，因為工會除了維護有身份人士權益，也維護無身份人士權益。現在一部份工友，特別是沒有身份的人，他們不明白沒有身份也可以參加，就不敢參加工會，怕有政治性，又怕惹上麻煩。那是很誤解的。事實上，他們也是移民，相反來說，工會在上星期，我們和工會政治部職員會見senator(參議員)， 提出五項要求。第一項是New York Health Plan，第二項是最低工資，增加最低工資。 問：Minimum Wage? 王：對，Minimum Wage。由5元多加至7元多。第三是，將Empire Zone(帝國轄區)，如商業從旺區搬到舊區，可獲稅務減免，製造更多就業機會。 問：每月交會費多少？ 王：工會會費每月是23元2角，半年會費是139.20。每次交會費他們說多少我就寫多少。我一交交半年會費，但有些人喜歡按月交費。 問：你說沒有身份的人以為參加了工會，政府會來找他？ 王：事實上不是這樣，事實若沒有身份的人參加了工會，工會為這些人要求政府通過法例，該法例說新移民來到美國，他們一樣在這裡生活及消費，希望政府通過法例，讓他們取得合法身份，獲得綠卡或暫時合法居留，以後轉綠卡。我們也時時見國會議員討論這些問題，你知道立法的事，要多年的要求及爭取，才可取得[成績]。像現在爭取得的兒童保健，是向多次參議員﹑眾議員見面傾偈，才有結果的。 問：你說其中一個要求華盛頓的，是增加minimum wage (最低工資)，你怕不怕因為現在在唐人街很多車衣都關閉，因為不能和第三世界國家的人工相比，如中國等，那些國家太便宜，你覺不覺得如提高美國工人薪金，這些工廠不能生存下法，工作機會還會更少呢？ 王：這也是一個問題，因為事實，中國大陸勞工工資低，做生意的人大部份尋求廉價勞工，降低成本。美國國內是貴人工，無可否認失去了一些工作機會。但那不代表這個行業不能做下去，他們不可以經營。他們要搬的都已經搬走了，但紐約依然需要一些製衣的行業留在紐約做，好像有一些seasonal(季節性)的衣服一定要趕上市，或者有些在外地做得不合格的，不可以運回中國修改，因為一來一回花費時間，要馬上在紐約修改。所以製衣行業仍然有前景的，仍有可為。如說紐約提高工資會影響製衣行業，你看很多美國城市人的工資都比紐約高，為什麼紐約的生活費高，房租﹑食住﹑電話﹑gas(煤氣)費，什麼都加，聽說labor day(勞動節)過後，又會漲價。那麼工資一直低，跟不上生活指數；若跟不上生活指數，人們會遷移到別的地方；若遷移到別的地方，沒有工﹑則沒有商，工商工商，沒有工做，何來商機？商人何來生意？紐約是人口集中的地方，容易找到人手，人們找工也想在紐約容易找工，而事實上紐約容易找工做，特別是勞工及中下層的工作，是比較容易找工。甚至很多機構等人用時，都不問有沒有身份，願意聘請。這對於初到貴境的人來說很有利。 問：在9/11時你仍然在唐人街做工？ 王：是的。 問：那9/11有沒有影響你的工廠呢？ 王：有，影響很大，工廠簡直沒有衣源，因為車子不准進入紐約市，不准入。Jobber(發衣商)cut(裁)了衣亦沒有辦法送入衣源，我們停了工，惟有領失業(金)。 問：你停了工多久？ 王：都有3個月。 問：那時間一點收入都沒有？ 王：一點收入都沒有，我們就領取失業(金)。 問：你有沒有領取9/11的救濟金？ 王：我本人沒有去取，我們的工友很多都有去申請，因為9/11之後，幾個月，3﹑4個月都沒有工開，後來有工開，但工作數量很少，一星期往往只開工一﹑兩天，有很多時間閒坐，有少數目的訂單來，就馬上要開工起貨。沒有辦法，閒坐那麼久，看見有書讀，就去報名，學9/11的course(課程)，學電腦英文等。 問：你為什麼不去申請救濟金？ 王：我覺得，可能我移民的日子比較長，我覺得自己過得去，自己的經濟可以維持就算了，將機會留給其他人，譬如他們初來到沒有經濟基礎又要租屋，孩子又少，他們應尋求幫助，他們沒有工開就沒有一點收入了。我們話到底有自己屋，又工作了多年，自己可以應付生活，自己過得去，不想搞太多事，所以我沒有尋求經濟方面(的援助)，後來見這樣多人都讀書，其他工友又說：「為什麼你不去讀，你可以去讀的，不會影響你的其他方面的。」那我就唸了last最後一期，原來是最後一期。 問：在什麼時候呢？ 王：2003年7,8月我才去讀書，總共唸了好像6星期。 問：我聽講是唸13個星期的？ 王：我讀完6星期，再讀6星期，即前後13個星期。 問：你選擇讀了什麼呢？ 王：我選擇讀電腦及英語。 問：為什麼讀英文？我見你的英文很流利，是嗎？ 王：不是，我的英文不濟事的，很多時心目中想講的表達不出來，很多時，要在家中先想，又要請教英文很好的人幫手，問是否這樣講？可以嗎？才敢勉強表達一些意思，總的不算行。 問：那你覺得13星期的課程有沒有用？ 王：很有用，第一學曉電腦上一些簡單的用途，英文方面學到一點點，他們教得很淺，學不到很多。 問：你是在那裡學習的？ 王：是在City Hall(大會堂)學的。 問：是那一個公司組織的？ 王：那一家公司，我不太清楚，好像說是9/11Fund(基本)。 問：你在報紙看到的？ 王：不，是一位工友正在那裡唸書，介紹我的，好像說是9/11……。 問：老師大部份是什麼人？ 王：大部份是白人，都有一兩個唐人，是台灣學生，在這裡唸大學。 問：你覺得他們了解你的情形嗎？ 王：他們都很了解，上課時他們問我們一些問題，工友都很坦白回答。 問：你覺得那13個星期的學習都有用，除了你得到一點錢外？ 王：當然，有用，因為一些工友一生人都未唸過書，連ABC也不會，唸了13個星期後，最起碼他會寫自己的名字，識寫地址，識講自己的地址，在那裡住，電話號碼等。 問：你學的是非常基本的英文，對你的事業沒有什麼……? 王：我覺得對我的私人有幫助。 問：對你事業無幫助，對你私人就有幫助。你有沒有考慮過到轉業呢？ 王：我到現在為止，我也沒有考慮過轉業。 問：你認為是因為自己年紀大，沒有這個機會，或是你喜歡你現在的工作？ 王：我仍然喜歡我現在做的車衣行業，這是原因之一；原因之二是因為我的年紀大，已到退休的年齡，你去找工作，別人都會考慮用一個年青人，不會考慮用1一個快退休的人，所以我也沒有考慮想要轉行。 問：所以你的工廠關門四個月是不是？ 王：是。 問：後來是不是返回正常？ 王：工廠後來一直有工開。最近又較為忙碌一些。 問：你是不是一直和同一間公司做工？ 王：不是，我在其中轉了很多間衣廠，這幾十年變化很大，大概做了四﹑五間廠。我和每一個老闆的關係很好，有點友情，有些老闆結束了，從事別的行業，有由子女繼續經營。 問：那你希望你的子女做這一行嗎？ 王：當然不會，但我有兩個兒子都做回餐館那一行，但不在紐約做，兩個在賓州費城做。 問：你覺得唐人街最大的變化是什麼？ 王：最大的變化是人口的變化。當時唐人街的租金很便宜，1974年租金(每月)120元，有兩房一廚一浴室，雖然房間不算大。我當時租金135，住了一年後加租至150元。兩房以上月租180元，現在當然是數倍以上。當時沒有那麼多在街邊賣菜，賣雜貨，那時全部都在店中賣，沒有那麼多茶樓及餐廳，更不要說擴充到這麼大，擴展到Delancey那邊，很少人行，就算Bowery包厘賣珠寶有些工友，入夜都不會經過， 不敢經過，有些工友說：「嘩，不要行呀！那些老番捉人的，有人駕駛汽車來捉你走！」當時女人很無知！聽了好怕！ 問：你來了這麼久，你滿意這裡的生活嗎？ (Side B) 王：哦…….，我想我沒有選擇錯誤。我覺得在美國，特別在紐約的生活，紐約是一個交通很方便的地方，我可以養車，但不養車也很自由，到那裡都有交通工具。家庭生活方面，我自己有房屋，住得很舒服，因為入車衣工會的行業，在工會地方不斷學習，我認識很多朋友，從朋友﹑學校﹑工會組織在暑期學習，我參加很多不同的活動，參加勞工婦聯，亞太勞聯﹑勞工組織，有些政治活動我也參加，我很喜歡聽別人說話的。我覺得年青時想多讀書，但沒有機會，到紐約入車衣行業，由於參加了工會，我有機會參加了更多不同課程，我雖然用了不少金錢及時間，但社會方面的學識增加了不少。所以我也很滿足，我覺得很快樂。 　　以前我未來時，我想我老了要返回香港養老，但現在我的兄弟姐妹說：「現在香港的樓平，你回來吧！美國的樓咁值錢，如果你賣了樓回來住，你可以退休了。」我說不行，我要回來紐約住。當我去旅行時，在飛機聽見，「紐約，紐約，I Love New York(我愛紐約)。」我很喜歡。回到這裡，我覺得這是真正的家，現在已經有很多朋友在這裡。 問：多謝你，將這麼多的故事，和唐人街的經驗，告訴我們。 王：很多謝你，鄭小姐，你太客氣了。 問：多謝你，王太太。 王：Thank you. (完) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Agnes Wong 911DA Item Elements describing a September 11 Digital Archive item. Status The process status of this item. approved Consent Whether September 11 Digital Archive has permission to possess this item. unknown Posting Whether the contributor gave permission to post this item. unknown Copyright Whether the contributor holds copyright to this item. unknown Source The source of this item. transcription Media Type The media type of this item. interview